Author Topic: Ironic  (Read 1364 times)

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2004, 09:41:53 AM »
Dman. Firstly I am in no way suggesting that you chop your bolts. the bolts are there and chopping them will do nothing other than stroke bayards ego which aparently to his credit he does not need or want. I have no problem with safe routs for beginners. I will admit that I was supprised to learn that you rap bolted the climb. It caught me totaly by suprise especialy in light of your previous stances which staunchly supported a traditionalist ethic. I am a bit puzzeld though as to how you can't see the irony and contradiction in your current  stance. I never worried too much about the traverse bolts on TA. It seemed clear that the gear there is adaquate. I have never done those pitches though. Both times I have been up the route I started with Turners Flake. I did find the chopping of a long established (been there longer than the chopper has been alive)belay/rap station on a trade route to extremly provocative and uncalled for. You whole heartedly supported the chopping. You claim that your bolts are diferent because they are not convience bolts. This is simply not true. Your climb was climbed without bolts. That and the fact that there are R (not X) rated climbs on whitehorse of simelar grade with runouts as long as your whole climb strongly sugest that your bolts are in fact convience bolts. Again that is ok by me.  My initial post was a fun little dig about you joining the ranks of the bolters and possibly haveing a more open mind now. Your answer indicated that you were still too high and mighty to wear a T-shirt from my club, (The evil bolters) that of course was before we found out that the deed was done on rappel which would nix you chances for a shirt anyways. How can you still justify you elitest stance in light of your current actions? I mistakenly thought that you had become more tolerent with age yet you seem to still advocate chopping long established bolts while placeing your own new bolts???  Fourtunatly the initial chopping of TA did not result in a rash of bolt chopping. TA is presumably as crouded as ever and life goes on.  

DLottmann

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2004, 10:35:28 AM »
Quote
You whole heartedly supported the chopping. You claim that your bolts are diferent because they are not convience bolts. This is simply not true. Your climb was climbed without bolts. That and the fact that there are R (not X) rated climbs on whitehorse of simelar grade with runouts as long as your whole climb strongly sugest that your bolts are in fact convience bolts....you seem to still advocate chopping long established bolts while placeing your own new bolts???



My strongest stance on the TA issue was that now that they were gone, they should not be replaced.  That's a seperate argument that was worn out last year.  It seems your definition of "convience bolts" and mine is where we may differ.  I respect the style the R and X rated climbs on the slabs were put up, and wouldn't want to take away from there FA'rs by changing them.  Like I have already said, I would have never retro-bolted this route had I known.  I don't fit into your description of "advocating chopping of long established bolts"... simply I don't think bolts should be were adequate natural gear is available, that's all.  Quite simple to me really.  Of course "adequate" is up for ones own interpretation.  My style is my own and it's too bad you don't like/understand it.

Offline Tim

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2004, 12:27:03 PM »
Why doesn't everyone just play nice and get along??? :'(
It is obvious to most of us that the damage has been done by the bolting of that route, everyone makes mistakes!  D-Man did his research, (as much as any other responsible climber should) and it didn't appear to have been climbed before.  It seems to me that it was put up in the most responsible manner possible.  
Tradman, I'm not too sure about your stance on the subject.  It seems to me that you are just doing your best to be argumentative, :o and that you're only concerened about hearing yourself speak in order to prove your superior mental ability to debate your point.  
He made a mistake dude!  We all do it!  But it was a mistake done on good terms and not maliciously.  And secondly, in the whole scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.  Its a piece of shit slab route!  No offense, "D" but the route doesn't really matter!  Nor does the hubub about its entry into this world.  Tradman is obviously just a bitchy climber who is pissed because he spends too much time every day in front of his computer and not climbing.  I mean dude, your first entry was @ 1:30 AM.
You all just need to chill out and remember why we do this stupid shit!  For the fun of it!  Remember fun!  If you need drama this bad, watch your SOAPS in the afternoon and get it out of your system there and not in the world of climbing!
Chill the hell out!  
Not that everyone who climbs here in the valley has to have done TA in it's entirity in order to be credible, but by the sounds of it, having only done Turner's, you're not the local expert.
A couple years ago, I bolted an "FA".  Only to find that it had been climbed at least once before, by one of the most prolific backcountry first-ascentionist in the area.  The reality was that we (the second ascent party) did as much research as possible before bolting the thing, only to find out that the route had been climbed 20-plus years earlier.  Let me start by saying that if this route was roadside, it would have a "birds nest"-style line at the base of it everyday.  And if it were to be climbed everyday, it wouldn't exist today if it weren't bolted.  It ascends a 30 foot high, super-thin layback flake that would come tearing off in chunks everytime someone fell on a #4 cam placed behind it.  The first ascent was done with hexes (that probably would have ripped), and the FA party agreed that the bolts will help preserve the climb.  The bolts weren't placed in order to make the route accessible, they were placed with the preservation of the freature in mind.  Because it wouldn't be long before someone ripped a few cams, destroy the climb, and broke their neck, miles from the nearest trail.  Cams weren't even an option when it was first climbed.  Now that every goofer has four sets of them, bolting it was almost a necessity.
And the FA party agrees!  So that's how it's staying.
Lets see how much of an arguement I can get out of Tradman with this one! ;D
This whole "Bolt, no bolt, rap bolt" thing is getting old.
Lets all try to be more positive and have fun.  

Offline climbhigh

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2004, 01:34:40 PM »
I am very surprised that DMan put bolts on rapell, and even more surprised that the climb is only a 5.6.  For the caliper of climber that DMan claims to be, why in the world would you think bolts are needed?  Reading all of your posts DMan, you clearly held the position as an anti bolter.  Once you alligned yourself with a chopper you never should've admitted placing a bolt, especially on a 5.6, just my 2 cents.  This does not mean that you are not a good guy, just means that you could be a politician, say the Kerry camp. ;D

DLottmann

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2004, 02:21:43 PM »
Quote
For the caliper of climber that DMan claims to be, why in the world would you think bolts are needed?  Reading all of your posts DMan, you clearly held the position as an anti bolter.  Once you alligned yourself with a chopper you never should've admitted placing a bolt, especially on a 5.6, just my 2 cents.


I have never claimed to be of any caliper, and gladly admit to every one I am a moderate climber who still gets spanked on 5.9's.  If you wanted to back yourself up by pulling a quote from one of my posts showing I am anti-bolt I would love to see it.  I could have soloed this route, which I feel is 5.5 BTW, and claimed a FA and left it for only people willing to solo it, but that wasn't my goal.  I wanted to establish another moderate route with decent protection on a moderate cliff out in the woods for moderate climbers.  Soloing up routes and claiming them as 1st ascents 3 grades below your leading ability feeds nothing but your own ego.  And you deft bastards, I didn't align myself with anyone, I supported the bolts NOT BEING REPLACED on TA.  You guys are worse than the f'ing media in trying to label me.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2004, 02:23:06 PM by DLottmann »

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2004, 03:45:20 PM »
Tim. You are right I do spend way too much time on this stupid machine. I also blew my shoulder out about six weeks ago and that certainly does not help my disposition. For the record D-man did bolt the climb in good faith if not in good style, no problem with the mistake. D- man did however quite feistily slam me in the past for my often pro bolt stance. I would have thought that he would have said somthing allong the lines of. "now that I know how much work it is to clean climbs and instal bolts i might be a bit slower to support chopping in the futuer" Instead we get this total denial that his bolts are in any way tainted and that his poop smells like roses ::)

Offline Tim

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2004, 07:50:47 AM »
Now isn't that better!  Everyone is having fun again!
Chill out!  Or I'll cyber-kick all your asses!  Well everyone except "Loran", because he is quoted somewhere else as having a size 12 foot, sounds like a big bastard! :o
Pay nice damn-it!
Show off your ego's when you're tied into the sharp-end!  Otherwise stop struttin'!

Offline rockytop

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2004, 02:50:01 AM »
What Tim? ...and end the entertainment?

Offline rustyrat

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Re: Ironic
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2004, 06:22:42 AM »
Time for a beer boys.....