Author Topic: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states  (Read 1769 times)

Offline Jim_Ewing

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2004, 06:44:21 AM »
I've provided you with the researched articles that support my position.  How about you putting up something other than party rhetoric and I promise I will read it.

By the way IQ is not the measure of a great man.  Frankly I don't see how your point about this equals 'distortions and half truths'.  Are you saying the conservatives don't do it?

I never said the right is 'ignorant'.  I never said they are 'misinformed' although I believe I posted an article that points this out quite clearly.  I did say that you should inform yourself, which is to say that you may not be informed.

As for liberals on the 'hard left' not loving their country I suggest you take a look at the military service of the top leaders of both parties.  This was very surprising to me; I never would have thought this to be true the way the right talks about patriotism.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/articles/sidebyside-military.html

Also, I'd be interested to know how it is that liberals support our enemies other than speaking out against war.  The way I see it the right wing has supported, and created, our enemies more than the left.  Who gave the Taliban their weapons?  Who gave Iraq their weapons?  Where does the money to fund terrorists come from; it will take you some time to figure that one out. I'll give you a hint - next time you fill up at the pump think about where the gas comes from?  Why was Dick Cheney and Halliburton allowed to exploit loopholes in the US sanctions against Iraq after the Gulf War and thereby assisting Sadaam in maintaining financing for his regime?

I can,t wait to get to Canmore where 80% of the people believe as I do.

And yes, I am a fine person according to my liberal mother, liberal wife, and 3-year-old daughter (political views yet to be determined).

Offline Liam

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2004, 06:48:54 AM »
Half truths and misreprensentation.  We are invading Iraq to get thier wmd.  Ops...nope..it was just to get rid of a evil man that we put into power. Just trying to clean up our mistakes.  And we clean oh so well.  

Despite the red vs blue state thing...and there was some truth to some of the numbers.  I do not belive that all those who voted were ignorant. I know a few highly educated..ie..Drs, college professors, etc...who voted for the pres.  Not necessarly because they belived in him..but because the belived in Kerry even less.  If one wants to take the high ground, then take it...with respect.  Otherwise..you simply lower yourself to those you make fun of...or claim that they dont love thier country just cause they dont blindly follow in rank and step.   I was pretty torn during the election...did not know who i was voting for till I put that pen down.  For some it was easy..for others not...

Offline the_other_andy

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2004, 04:16:11 PM »
waaaaaaaaaaboohooo! you never make fun of tradmanz spelling, Im hurt. Where the hell is that spellcheck anyway?.

I think 80% of Canada is about 473 people no?.

Happy hacking braa and don't forget your earmurffs. ;)

Offline Mountain_Man

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2004, 12:45:55 PM »
If you do love your country that's a relief.  Liberals always support positions in direct opposition to their country's best interest.

Democrats always lose wars (since WW2)

Republicans always win them, despite the incessant hysteria of Congressional Democrats and their allies in Hollywood, Universities and giant media outlets.

Democrats win elections when they're able to connect to the workers of America.  They cannot do this by spouting liberal blather, such as wining about how people won't like us if we're strong.  

Republicans get the job done, and by and large, the American people applaud their efforts, despite nearly every newspaper and media outlet saying the GOP is stupid and destroying the world.

Liberals answer these facts by denigrating the electorate.  Exactly how this thread began.

Checkmate.

Offline trad_doc

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2004, 06:51:16 AM »
Quote
If you do love your country that's a relief. æLiberals always support positions in direct opposition to their country's best interest.

Democrats always lose wars (since WW2)

Republicans always win them, despite the incessant hysteria of Congressional Democrats and their allies in Hollywood, Universities and giant media outlets.

Democrats win elections when they're able to connect to the workers of America. æThey cannot do this by spouting liberal blather, such as wining about how people won't like us if we're strong. æ

Republicans get the job done, and by and large, the American people applaud their efforts, despite nearly every newspaper and media outlet saying the GOP is stupid and destroying the world.

Liberals answer these facts by denigrating the electorate. æExactly how this thread began.

Checkmate.


Point 1:
Say what?  Given his role in achieving victory in WW2, Truman can hardly be considered a failed war president because of the Korean war.  Vietnam was lost under Nixon, a republican, as a result of his inability to grasp basic aspects of tactical military doctrine (or managerial incompetence, take your pick).  Gulf War I was lost under George Bush (a republican).  As a Republican you might argue that this war was won.  Since the primary goal of the war (removal of Saddam from power) was not achieved, I would not agree with your assesment.  Gulf War II has certainly not been won.  Quite the contrary, all evidence seems to indicate that this is escalating into a guerrila war that shows many similarities to Vietnam.  Unfortunately, US military tactics are not very effective against a guerrila insurgency that is backed by a significant percentage of the population.  How can it be?  We just don't have the troop numbers required to deal with that type of dispersed, mobile force.  Why?  Because of the arrogance of this adminstration in assuming it could quickly dispatch a third world country with less than 100,000 troops.  So, you would be wrong on point one.  

Point 2:
Wrong again.  Clearly you did not major in either history or political science.  Have you ever had a course on US history?  Is this no longer taught as part of a basic high school curriculum?

Point 3:
That's a pretty simplistic view of election theory.  It would be nice if things worked that way.  Democrats, like any candidates, win elections when they connect with the largest segment of voters.  Sorry, elections don't swing on the workers of this country.  Wrong again.

Point 4:
Who's spraying partisan politics now?

Point 5:
Euphemism--pot calling the kettle black.  Ever heard of it?  Check a mirror when you get a chance.  In my experience, Democrats are much more willing to listen to both sides of an argument than are Republicans.  Right wing politcal doctrine these days consists of lambasting and denigrating all opposing views, no matter how well thought out.  Again, wrong.

Rook to C7, mate. 8)

Offline Mountain_Man

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2004, 09:59:49 PM »
You've totally missed the point, deliberately I think.  You're a bunch of elitist snobs, who can't stand your repudiation by the electorate, so you call them stupid, Nazis, fags, etc.  That's what this thread was about.

That's the checkmate.

I just wanted to laugh in your faces, and pint out how smug and closed minded you all are.

As to the rest, to say Truman won the Korean War  means you know nothing of history.  Go see why the voters turned against him.  Hint, it wasn't for winning the war.  Also you probably don't know the Roosevelt and Truman administrations were filled with hundreds of paid Soviet spies.  This was a huge scandal at the time, and was proven by declassified Soviet cables in the 90s.  I'm sure liberals don't want to know how Truman vehemently attacked anyone asking questions about these spies.  For Joseph McCarthy's pains, he has been unjustly been the target of two generations of liberal hysteria, none of which is historically accurate.  Mccartyism is a liberal lie.  He was a great patriot.  Which means you'd hate him, right?

Roosevelt had the known Soviet spy Alger Hiss at his side when he gave Poland to Stalin.  Hiss went on to represent the USA at the birth of the UN.  Nice, huh, the US rep that helped write the UN Charter was a paid Soviet spy?  These spies also made sure Mao came to power.  If this made you angry there's hope for you.

The electorate was furious with Truman and loved Joe McCarthy.  

Vietnam was Kenndy and Johnson's war, and for you to say it was Nixon's shows one of two things.  Either you don't know history, or you're a liar.  Sorry, maybe both.  I've found liberals are real loose with the truth, so maybe you're just propagandizing.  No offense.

Bush I took back Kuwait, so you must really be out to lunch to call that a defeat.  Highly biased for sure.

Carter nearly destroyed this economy and made Americans ashamed.  Regan came in and won the cold war, despite the media hysterically insisting he would destroy the world.

Clinton was very smart, and mostly adopted Republican themes, but only responded to numerous terrorist attacks to divert attention from his Monica deposition and his impeachment.  Which is why we have to fight a war now.

It's very disingenuous to attack my education, which is part of the elitist traits you liberals have.  If you ever said one good thing about your country other than your dreams of a socialist utopia, I might not think of you as traitors, but you've very predictable.  Liberalism is a cult.  You have to accept all it's beliefs, and not question them.  You tolerate murderers, KKK leaders and serial rapists as leaders of your party, with the blessing of the media.  Republicans can't even make a joke or they'll never hear the end of it.  Enormous double standard.

So I hope you see that you don't understand your country at all, and you are dinosaurs on the wrong side of history.  But there is hope.  Get a little knowledge, dare to think baby killing is wrong (I know, how non progressive is that!).  Love your country with sneering.  Stop thinking you're so much better than a truck driver.  See what an optimist I am?

Hey how's the ice?

Offline trad_doc

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2004, 10:50:38 AM »
Quote
You've totally missed the point, deliberately I think. ÊYou're a bunch of elitist snobs, who can't stand your repudiation by the electorate, so you call them stupid, Nazis, fags, etc. ÊThat's what this thread was about.

That's the checkmate.

I just wanted to laugh in your faces, and pint out how smug and closed minded you all are.

As to the rest, to say Truman won the Korean War Êmeans you know nothing of history. ÊGo see why the voters turned against him. ÊHint, it wasn't for winning the war. ÊAlso you probably don't know the Roosevelt and Truman administrations were filled with hundreds of paid Soviet spies. ÊThis was a huge scandal at the time, and was proven by declassified Soviet cables in the 90s. ÊI'm sure liberals don't want to know how Truman vehemently attacked anyone asking questions about these spies. ÊFor Joseph McCarthy's pains, he has been unjustly been the target of two generations of liberal hysteria, none of which is historically accurate. ÊMccartyism is a liberal lie. ÊHe was a great patriot. ÊWhich means you'd hate him, right?

Roosevelt had the known Soviet spy Alger Hiss at his side when he gave Poland to Stalin. ÊHiss went on to represent the USA at the birth of the UN. ÊNice, huh, the US rep that helped write the UN Charter was a paid Soviet spy? ÊThese spies also made sure Mao came to power. ÊIf this made you angry there's hope for you.

The electorate was furious with Truman and loved Joe McCarthy. Ê

Vietnam was Kenndy and Johnson's war, and for you to say it was Nixon's shows one of two things. ÊEither you don't know history, or you're a liar. ÊSorry, maybe both. ÊI've found liberals are real loose with the truth, so maybe you're just propagandizing. ÊNo offense.

Bush I took back Kuwait, so you must really be out to lunch to call that a defeat. ÊHighly biased for sure.

Carter nearly destroyed this economy and made Americans ashamed. ÊRegan came in and won the cold war, despite the media hysterically insisting he would destroy the world.

Clinton was very smart, and mostly adopted Republican themes, but only responded to numerous terrorist attacks to divert attention from his Monica deposition and his impeachment. ÊWhich is why we have to fight a war now.

It's very disingenuous to attack my education, which is part of the elitist traits you liberals have. ÊIf you ever said one good thing about your country other than your dreams of a socialist utopia, I might not think of you as traitors, but you've very predictable. ÊLiberalism is a cult. ÊYou have to accept all it's beliefs, and not question them. ÊYou tolerate murderers, KKK leaders and serial rapists as leaders of your party, with the blessing of the media. ÊRepublicans can't even make a joke or they'll never hear the end of it. ÊEnormous double standard.

So I hope you see that you don't understand your country at all, and you are dinosaurs on the wrong side of history. ÊBut there is hope. ÊGet a little knowledge, dare to think baby killing is wrong (I know, how non progressive is that!). ÊLove your country with sneering. ÊStop thinking you're so much better than a truck driver. ÊSee what an optimist I am?

Hey how's the ice?


Actually, if you read my post you would know that I didn't say that Truman won the Korean war.  Instead, I suggested that his role in WW2 mitigated that loss in light of your incendiary statement that all Dem's lose wars while all Rep's win them.  Nixon did, in fact, preside over the last four years of the Vietnam war.  He was responsible for escalating the conflict into Cambodia and Laos.  He ordered clandestine troop movements into both countries, despite a direct order from Congress to the contrary.  I guess Rep presidents don't have to be accountable to congress (Iran-contra ring a bell), hunh?  Like it or not, Nixon ended up holding the bag on Vietnam.  Gulf war I was about a lot more than freeing Kuwait.  If you haven't figured that one out by now, you'll probably never "get it."

Your ranting about my liberalism make my point about Rep's doing nothing more than throwing out unfounded accusations, since I haven't identified myself as either liberal or conservative.  I merely pointed out that your statements were not factually correct, which they were not, and suggested that you might want to consider supplementing your knowledge a bit before you start spraying about non-climbing related subjects.  

Also worth keeping in mind that Christianity started out as a cult, has interesting implications for your statement on liberalism...

;D

Offline Broken_Spectre

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2004, 12:26:42 PM »
Looks like mr. mountain man just read Ann Coulter's book "Slander" seeing at how he is spraying the "Joe McCarthy was persecuted line". Do you know that the historian Ann Coulter used as evidence to support her claim publicly stated that she misrepresented and distorted his conclusions which were in fact completely contrary to her claims?  

I can suggest some helpful reading that might help you begin to understand why Bush is so despised:

"Two Treatises on Government" John Locke
"The Federalist Papers" Madison, Jay, Hamilton
"Democracy in America" De Tocqueville  

and more recently :
"The Future of Freedom" Zakaria

Offline trad_doc

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2004, 03:18:39 PM »
I just couldn't bring myself to touch the McCarthy troll.  But, I guess if he admires Nixon then Joe isn't too much of a stretch...   ::)

Also might try "On Liberty" by Mills and "The Second Treatise on Government" by Locke to help him understand the dislike of W (by both conservatives and liberals alike).

I think old Ben Franklin had it right when he said, "Any American willing to sacrifice civil liberities for a sense of security deserves neither."

Word.  

Offline Mountain_Man

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2004, 06:44:37 PM »
Cool how you're changing the topics of discussion.  Not that there's rules, but I notice you don't disagree with a simple fact.  Care to concede them?  

Far from the universal scorn you show towards President Bush, it was a pretty solid victory.  Gains in the House and Senate.  Despite the liberal media calling him a liar, a cowboy and worse daily for over a year.  How can you explain this incongruent picture.  Sorry, you already did.  The voters are stupid.  Checkmate!!!

Hey, a party that has as it's elder statesmen felons, drunks, ex KKK leaders and racists has got a lot of hypocracy on it's side.  Show some pride.  You don't have to pretend to be a moral party.  As long as they vote for baby killing they're fine with you.  Of course I'm talking about Senator Kennedy, Senator Byrd, Bill Clinton, and Jesse jackson.

I understand how you hate a leader who loves God.  Did you know that Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, the biggest mass murderers in history were all atheists?  You're in such fine company.

The Ann Coulter book you're referring to is Traitor, not Slander.  I can understand why liberals would feel very uncomfortable reading the truth about their incessant cheerleading for America's enemies.

You know what?  To call your views progressive is so ironic.  Your problem is you can't stand a new generation telling you you're full of it.  The only reason I posted was the way you were all smugly patting yourselves on the back, calling the voters stupid.  That's going to win a lot of votes to your side.

Liberals are easy to spot.  They bad mouth Republicans, tell you you're stupid, uninformed, and think Democrats walk on water.  I guess you think you've got your invisible cloak on.  Goofy.

If you want a book that might open your eyes, may I recommend David Limbaugh's Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against  Christianity.

Little kids are humiliated and given detention for bowing their heads to pray before lunch.  Teachers tell kids the Ten Commandments are hate speech.

After the Columbine Massacre, students were invited to paint tiles above their lockers.  Some students painted such objectionable messages as Jesus Wept and God is Love.  Intolerable.  The school removed 90 tiles without warning, while grief couselors armed with teddy bears swarmed the school.  Jesus wept, hate speech.  Only a liberal could make that connection.

Schools ban Christmas Carols and force students to sing songs of other religions.  Otherwise their grades are lowered.

This country was founded in the belief that we were special because of our love for God, and His inclusion in our daily lives.  Now their own words are twisted to eradicate God from our lives.  The Communist program continues despite the death of the Soviet Union.  1920, the party wrote that the people can never be made Communist until God is severed from their lives.  How does it feel to be dupes for a dead ideology?

You may get the impression I hate liberals.  No way, some of my best friends are liberals.  They're a lot of fun.  I question their patriotism and they start sputtering.  None of you ever say one good thing about you country that isn't colored by socialism.  It is sickening.

Hey, Nothing personal.  I hear the ice is coming in good up north!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 09:35:21 PM by Mountain_Man »

DLottmann

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2004, 09:25:49 AM »
Quote
This country was founded in the belief that we were special because of our love for God, and His inclusion in our daily lives.


Really?  I thought after fleeing persecution from England we created a country free from religious persecution with a SEPARATION of church and government!?  Lately religion is becoming to much a part of government, and seperating the two was a huge founding principle of this country.  I can understand that since most Americans are Christian, why Bush would play towards that, but it isn't right.  Before you start calling me names let me reassure you I think "baby-killing" is wrong.  Not letting kids carol is wrong.  We are at a critical point here.  Econimists are predicting "economical armaggedon" within the next 5 years.  Hate speech is being flung BOTH ways constantly in the media, on the streets, and in these forums.  If people don't chill shit is going down.  You can't beat you ideals into a liberal's head, and vice versa.  I'm not even sure what I am since I find problems with both parties.  I guess, like some others here I would call myself an enviromentalist.

Offline Mountain_Man

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2004, 01:51:44 PM »
I agree, although love of God was a deep part of our nation's fathers.  They just didn't want the government to make one church the only church.  That's why liberals tare trying to get all the love of God out of our lives, because it's everywhere in our culture because of who we're coming from.

I agree chill is needed.  I didn't start this thread.  I do aim to finish it, with not one snobbish liberal standing!

I'm glad to meet a free thinker, and like to think of myself as one too.  But liberals bring out the fight in me.

DLottmann

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2004, 06:20:51 PM »
Quote
I do aim to finish it, with not one snobbish liberal standing!


I do think your beef is with the "extreme liberal".  Extreme anything is bad, unless of course we are talking of climbing.  If you wish to further discuss politics with me in general, pick one of these three topics and I will meet you there.

Offline Mountain_Man

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2004, 07:42:16 PM »
I pick climbing.  Where ya located, old timer?

Offline trad_doc

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Re: Carefully reasoned analysis of the red states
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2004, 06:05:32 AM »
MM,

The amusing thing about your views is that they all apply to Republicans as much as they apply to Democrats.  There are plenty of Republican politicians who:

are felons, have cheated on their spouses, have behaved badly, are junkies, don't go to church, have refused to serve their country by performing military duty, have cheated on their taxes, are intolerant of other viewpoints, have been involved in the KKK, have had abortions (or had spouses that had abortions), etc etc etc (i.e. all the things you accuse Democrats of).  Like you said, it's hard to believe that so much hypocrisay could exist in one party--the Republicans.

You are also guilty of taking extreme liberties with historical facts, a charge that you have leveled against "liberals."  More hypocrisy.

Your claim that all liberals are atheists is as preposterous as it is offensive.  

I'm always happy to shoot the shit about politics, but you done nothing but spew the rhetoric of the raving ultra-right in an uniformed and useless way that makes it very hard to take you seriously.  Life just isn't as black and white as you would like to make it.

No time for ice.  Winter is all about snowboarding.  


8)