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[dogboy]

Not so much a trip report as a recommendation...a friend and I did Still in Saigon to Miss Saigon on Cathedral last night, and I can't recommend them highly enough!  They're clean, well protected (Still in Saigon is almost entirely bolts), and they climb as good, solid 5.8's--not Cathedral 5.8's as much as regular, fun, challenging 5.8's.  Next time you're at the Thin Air face, definitely consider doing them...

[Smack!]

If you liked Saigon so much, there are some 5.8 climbs you need to get on and see what 5.8 is really about.  If you plan on doing some of the long (non-east coast) classics, don't even start to think that you will run into anything like saigon.  If you want to spend all day linking up classic 5.8's on cathedral, try these.  Remission, then Ork, then Three Birches to Black Lung to Final Gesture.  That is what any of the routes in the "50 classic climbs of North America" are like.  A Saigon pitch would be rated 5.6.
Seriously!  Do all of those climbs in a day, 5.8 will never kick your ass so bad.  It will make 5.9 seem easy!
Smack!  

[dogboy]

In no particular order:

Haven't done remission, and have no intention of worming my way up a 5.8 chimney, unless it's full of ice.

I found Black Lung to be in the same category as Saigon...great fun, but not difficult, and certainly not strenuous, as everyone claims.

Haven't done Orc, but want to.

Three Birches...also great fun, but p1 is sandbagged...or wasn't nearly so slippery when first done.

Final gesture...just looks like a pain in the ass.

[Admin Al]

actually Final Gesture is a really neat climb!

[Smack!]

What a lot of people don't know is that Remmission has only one pitch of chimney climbing.  the rest is crack, corner, face and the second pitch is a bit run-out.
Black lung isn't hard, but it's a 5.8 that gets you up to final gesture, which is a cool climb that doesn't get done often.
ORK is a one-move wonder that gets you up to a nice flaring crack system.  This route never gets climbed!  traverse in from under the Pooh block.
Do the 5.8 pitches on the N.E. Buttress of Higher Cathedral or Kor Ingalls on Castleton Tower and you will never again think that Three Birches is sandbagged!   Routes that get a reputation for being sandbagged around here are not, they are however, a great bench-mark for bigger longer classic routes all over north america.
There are some routes in the Whites that are hard for the grade, but not too many that are actually "sandbagged".

[Admin Al]

along the line of sandbags... a few years ago I was in Yosemite & wanted to do something on El Cap. I thought I was a solid 5.8 leader so we picked Little John Right, a 5.8. let me tell you, it was definitely harder than any 5.8 I'd done to date. it totally changed my mind about rating consistency.

Al  

[Jeff Lea]

Al; I couldn't agree with you more about Little John Right-it was my first climb in Yosemite 30+ years ago, and after a serious (and successful) struggle, we retired to the Merced with beers to rehydrate (did I forget to mention that it was a humid 90+degree day?) and nurse our bruised egos. Jeff

[Fred Keith]

S.I.S. is indeed a great (PG) 5.8!

However when I moved back-east 5 years ago it wasn't so damned (PG). The only true committing move on it, the mantel, had a "deck-on-the-ledge-then-over-the-edge" fall potential. Maybe that's what made it 5.8.

You'd think the route-author drilling all those nicely-placed bolts would have gone all the way to making in a truly recreational route. Since then, I have not climbed it but I understand there's one at your nose now.

That said, I also think you'll find ALOT of S.I.S.-type "rec-routes" of all grades out west. They're not all gnarly. Places like the South Platte, Lumpy or even the Valley have great relaxing .8s, .9s and .10s (Melvin's Wheel, Tales of Topographic Oceans, stuff on Royal Arches)

However, Smack is right: if people like Erickson or Kor put them up, they'll be stiff (Ruper, Conan's Gonads, The Snaz).

Also, on one of the other threads, folks were talking about first acsensionists making moderate routes (X) because it proved their hardness. I hate that. Make it a classic, not a testament to your lame insecurity.

Don't you agree Jeff?

[Fred Keith]

Another burly graded route (5.9...not) on El Cap: Moby Dick.

Christ.

[bumpkin]

Of course Black Lung was called 5.7 when I first climbed it. Three Birches has gone from 8 to 8+, as has Pine Tree Eliminate. I believe They Died Laughing (***++ route!) used to be 8.  Dierdre has gone to 9+ or 10a depending on your guide, though when I was getting smacked around by it I was on a nine. Similarly, I've failed on Rapid Transit twice when it was 9-, but now I see it has been nicely up-graded.

Since I'm getting older, not stronger, I went and bought a new guidebook ... I climb "harder" now, without having to put in time tearing tendons at the gym.

As for Yosemite: well Bishop's Terrace took some work, but Nutcracker was very, very casual.

[dogboy]

Fred--
I do agree...and if, as Rob claimed, the folks putting up 5.8R/X routes are just too lazy to put in fixed gear, then they should leave the route for those interested enough to put in sufficient effort to make the climb safe.  To me it's akin to those who climb 5.11 telling an intermediate climber whose excited about leading their first 5.9 that the route they led "isn't really a 5.9," meaning that it's not a sandbagged 5.9 led in 1950 with wooden pegs.  Too often I think harder climbers feel the need to hold everyone to their standards...and forget what it was like to feel scared/excited/proud when they finally led Thin Air...now it's "just a trade route, easy 5.6, with too much fixed gear."

[wiregate]

 Too often I think harder climbers feel the need to hold everyone to their standards...and forget what it was like to feel scared/excited/proud when they finally led Thin Air...now it's "just a trade route, easy 5.6, with too much fixed gear."

Dogboy, funny you should mention that.  I do agree with you, though I believe there are still some folks that can climb hard yet respect someone else's personal accomplishment even if it is Thin Air.  

Obviously you understand.  BTW, two years ago, Thin Air was a big one for me,and I'm still proud of it.