NEClimbs.com forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Reading the forum on your cell phone? There's an easier way. We've enabled a Tapatalk app that makes browsing the forum a whole lot easier. Check it out in the iPhone or Android store if you don't own it already.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Euro death knot in winter  (Read 223 times)

dogboy

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 555
  • What?
Euro death knot in winter
« on: December 11, 2002, 08:00:39 AM »

Here's a question for everyone...I finally gave in to popular pressure and started using the overhand knot for rappels this summer.  So far it has worked fine.  How do people feel, however, about using it with wet/icy ropes in winter?  Anyone have extensive experience with the knot in winter?  It occured to me while tying it in an icy rope this past Sunday....
Logged
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.

ccclimber

  • NEClimbs Junior Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2002, 08:16:03 AM »

no problemo!!!although i've only used it on my doubles and not on ropes of different diameter...
Logged
Ed

STEVE D

  • Guest
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2002, 09:00:52 AM »

i HAVE BEEN USING THAT kNOT FOR 3-4 YEARS IN THE WINTER

sTEVE d
Logged

Ivan_Chomkin

  • NEClimbs Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2002, 06:08:23 PM »

wait...that's not the same as the Munter hitch, is it?
Logged

dogboy

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 555
  • What?
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2002, 05:38:58 AM »

No...it's what people call the overhand knot when used to tie two rappel ropes together....
Logged
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.

Ivan_Chomkin

  • NEClimbs Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2002, 08:50:08 AM »

OH!

shit...that doesn't sound like a very good idea. I've used a figure-8 for this, sometimes a double-fishermans...but an overhand?

sounds sketchy...
Logged

scottie_c

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2002, 12:49:25 PM »

Leave a little extra in the tails... say 16"-18" or so.

You are good to go.

As for the figure 8 or double fisherman's...
Waste a lot of time tying and untying that...  :(
Logged

DWarriner

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 506
  • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2002, 01:04:10 PM »

Be advised that this knot should *NEVER* be used for ropes of different diameters.  It will tend to roll apart under those conditions.  I had a guide tell me there was a death because of this (I have not been able to comfirm this).  As I understand it, the greater the difference in diameters, the greater the tendency to roll apart is.  

I was always very suspicious of this knot but over the years have become more comfortable with it.  I now use it about 1/2 the time.  In general, I tend to like knots that want to tighten under force (rewoven knots for example), this knot will tend to pull apart under force which is why I am suspicious of it.

With that said, if you have 12" of tail, nothing is going to happen and if the rappel is straight forward, why make yourself undo a rewoven knot.

Also, if you have 2 different diameter ropes and are committed to this knot, I was told that you can put 2 knots in back to back and it will solve the problem.  I've never tested that though and am not sure I ever will.

-David

Logged
There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

Admin Al

  • NEClimbs Administrator
  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7016
  • Climb 'till your forearms turn to jelly!
    • NEClimbs
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2002, 01:29:37 PM »

I've been using the overhand for rapping for the last couple of years with no problems. I was skeptical about using it with ropes of different diameters until I heard from several quides that it had been tested and approved by the AMGA on ropes where the difference in diameter was no more than 3mm. I have an 8mm rap line and a 10.5 mm climbing rope that I do this with every day. so far I never see it slipping. FWIW I always tension every strand before I rap.

Al
Logged
Al Hospers
____________________________________
my music
 https://www.facebook.com/BlackMountainRamblers

web hosting, design and software programming:
 http://www.cambersoft.com

om

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 209
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2002, 03:38:15 PM »

There was a discussion on gunks.com about this and there was a link to an article with all the data on when and how the overhand fails. What I remember from it is that overhand fails under a load which is close to a factor-2 dynamic fall and that figure-8 requires even less force to fail.
I still use a figure-8 most of the times - easier to undo and it doesn,t get stuck in the rap rings.
Logged
-om

Leslie Choquette

  • Guest
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2002, 05:17:38 PM »

I also saw the post on Gunks.com.  It's important to note that the figure 8 that failed quicker than the overhand was not a rewoven figure 8 but a "death knot" figure 8.  A guy died in Zion this summer from using the latter.  It is never recommended owing to its tendency to roll.
Logged

DWarriner

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 506
  • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Logged
There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

dogboy

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 555
  • What?
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2002, 07:57:58 AM »

I think the upshot of all this is that the EDK is a perfectly acceptable knot for rappeling...which is all I have ever seen it recommended for.  It would be quite difficult to generate 1000lbs+ of force on a regular rappel...and, if you look at the testing at xmission, the knot rolled at forces close to what it took to actually break the rope.  You can back the knot up by tying a second overhand knot in one of the strands right up against the backside of the double overhand...that way, if the knot tries to roll, it will butt up against the second knot and stop....
Having said all that, I would love to see the actual AMGA test results...it seems that, with all the talk about this knot, there should be some official testing available...especially since I see AMGA certified guides using it all the time....
Logged
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.

smack #2

  • Guest
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2002, 10:49:47 AM »

You can use the EDK for you cordelettes as well.  Works every time.  Oh, the AMGA and IFMGA want to call this knot the "flat overhand".  If you don't like, don't use it,  But you'd better be sure not to tell me it's not safe!  Be sure to use long tails, and that way it is not a Euro Death Knot!
Logged

Bmac

  • NEClimbs Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Euro death knot in winter
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2002, 12:45:05 PM »

For years I have used an overhand knot with long tails 15-20".  Then I tie a knot in each of the tails close to the overhand.  This makes the overhand impossible to slip out.  

The overhand is alot lower profile than a doubble fishermans, and tends to hang up less when pulling lines.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.157 seconds with 22 queries.