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Author Topic: Was it really necessary??  (Read 568 times)

HReynolds

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Was it really necessary??
« on: February 01, 2003, 03:44:57 PM »

OK, So I finally have to log in after a couple of years of checking out this site.  Was it REALLY necessary to put in a couple of bolts so that Black Pudding Gully could be done as a mixed climb????  I mean, c'mon, back in the day (early 80's) we would just wait until it came in shape instead of drilling it into  submission.   Al says that the pic is foreshortened, but any way that you look at it, there is no more than one and a half body lengths (being generous here) of rock in between the sections of ice.  I KNOW that it has been done without ANY (let alone 2!!!) bolts in similar conditions in the past, and feel that the addition of the new pro is totally out or order.

I think that the "new" guard in North Conway is looking for an easy way out here, to make a name for themselves.  Black Pudding has remained a proud climb for decades, with ascencionists who waited until the rock & ice dictated that they were ready for an ascent.  By placing bolts on this section I feel that my and others ascents with straight shafted tools and natural gear, nearly twenty years ago, have been taken away from us.

I totally don't understand the new wave of climbing rock with ice gear and calling it M-something, when in reality you are using AID to get up a section of rock.  It is neither rock nor ice, but a slap in the face of real ice/rock climbers.  If you are truly a dedicated climber, then PLEASE act responsibly and use what nature provides you.  If you cannot, then please leave for future (and past) generations the challenges that the terrain provides.  Shame on you for promoting otherwise.

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Admin Al

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2003, 05:41:33 PM »

ok, so tell me once again why the pins are in the rock finish to Pegasus? and for that matter why are there pins in P 1 of Recompense? are they REALLY necessary?

any btw in it's current state it's 2 body lengths up to the curtain. it broke off.

Al
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H Reynolds

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2003, 06:32:12 PM »

First of all, I am talking about Black Pudding Gully, a climb with a 25 year history of ascents.  Those other two routes are a whole separate subject that I would be happy to discuss in the future...

Second, there is no way in HELL that is two body lengths, based on photographic evidence or personal experience.  Even if it was, to say that bolts were necessary because the curtain broke off is pathetic.  Take a major step back and think before you post.  Even at Rumney, which is often demonized on this very site, would you not find two bolts within 12 feet, considering natural pro at the zero and 15 foot level.  There is even a crack visible in the photo that would take a piton; take a close look and you will see evidence of piton placement.  Bolts were unneccesary.

Reinhold Messner said that carrying bolts was like carrying your courage in your rucksack.  That was certainly the case here.  This climb HAS been done in similar conditions without them, and the additions of bolts now is cowardice.  I realize that these "hard men" provide you with new photographic fodder for your website, but that does not make their actions sancrosanct.  Rationalize it any way you want, but that is the hard truth.  
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dogboy

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2003, 05:14:40 AM »

I just want to point out that some of the retrobolting/rebolting that was done this summer was done by the "old guard" with the encouragement of the old guard.  I just think it is unfair to split the debate by rhetorically placing younger climbers on one side and older climbers on the other.  I'm somewhat sympathetic with your argument...at the same time, the two who did the bolting are responsible climbers (in my opinion), who have a good deal of alpine as well as rock/ice experience.  In their judgement at the time, the climb needed the bolts to go...just as, when Michael Hatrich put up Wanderlust, he felt it needed no gear to go.  It's certainly worth having the debate...but I'm not sure it's useful to try to shame others into sharing your opinion.
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Will Mayo

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Is any of this really necessary??
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2003, 05:47:24 AM »

Dear Mr/s. Reynolds:
I'm sorry you don't like the bolts.  Is any of this really necessary?

As far as the details....the picture on this site shows one bolt, slung with a nut (I forgot the ratchet); the rock pro below with a red sling is a nut.  Above, I saw lots of bad rock so I put in that one bolt to protect the dagger (it was the first bolt I'd ever placed and it's a bit crooked and overly driven and I'm sorry for that).  I went up on it as the picture shows, and the dagger snapped off (see other picture on the report which shows the route after the dagger snapped).  I went for The Ride.  So, after going back to town to get a ratchet, I put in a second bolt about 4-5' higher than the first.  Then, we each led the route.  It's short sweet safe and a fun alternative route choice, I thought.

I know I am of no compare with Reinhold Messner nor any other climber that has climbed this particular route before with better style.  I thought of this as a "variation" of an existing route and so I didn't think "retro-bolting" ethics were of issue.  But, I certainly could be wrong.  

But, please, if you don't like the bolts just ignore their existence - they are camoflauged, at least.

Enjoy,
Will
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Mark Givens

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2003, 06:40:36 AM »

I'll add a couple thoughts here as well:

The rock is extremely poor in quality. Discolorations in the rock in the photos is due to the fact that we shed many loose flakes and edges. Pins or traditional gear wasn't an option. Both Will and I are versed in the art of pounding iron and if it could have gone that way, we would gladly have done it. When natural gear was available, as Will mentioned above, it was used. Dubious, I might add.

Short routes requires closer spaced gear in order to be made safe; the same was done here. Needless decking and injuries in the attempt to be macho on an 18 foot curtain seems a bit silly. Bolder climbing can be had elsewhere in the Valley.

I guess I am surprised that you feel this accent has sullied your climb 25 years ago. Sorry about this. The sport is changing. It's inevitable. We try to do the best as climbers with what we have but pleasing everyone is impossible.

As for the poking at us about glory hogging, being a "dedicated" or "real" climber, neither of us have sprayed about this. I think we both have this climb clearly in perspective - a fun day between friends and not a monumental first "mixed" accent. I've said it before - most of what people think is rad today has been done many years ago and often in better style on poorer equipment. If Al is excited about it and chooses to talk about it or post photos, great! I hope others will enjoy this route safely in any condition, which is now possible.

Lastly, the debate between "new school" and "old school" is silly. My climbing history goes back to the 70's, Will's the 80's. We're not trying to make waves, names for ourselves, etc. We're fired up about climbing, enjoy all of it's facets, and like to share the enthusiasm with others.

Climb on,

Mark
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Alex

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2003, 07:12:45 AM »

well said Mark...I couldn't agree more with the last paragraph. I never understood this "generations conflict"...I'm 20, so according to the idea of generation conflict, I am supposed to be a Prana-wearing sport climber who puts in bolts left and right. Hmmm...funny thing though, I've never placed a bolt in my life, or pin for that matter and in general prefer trad climbing and mountaineering over cragging and sport climbing. So really, I'm not sure what this whole "debate" is about. Have people forgotten about a small detail - that CLIMBING is our main concern?
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ccclimber

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2003, 08:14:34 AM »

let me say that i trad climbed many years before clipping a bolt..hell, my first trip to the new we did all trad routes...i have no problem with the way mark and will did the climb...i wish i could have been there to witness it!!!of course hardly anyone cares what i think...but this was my thoughts on the climb when i noticed that a chunk was lost....when is it decided to give the climb a chance to touch down or be a mixed climb the remainder of the season?????i myself have not done pot o gold over at kinsman cause i know it would be lost for some time after being completed...i've seen al ask not to toprore dropline in the hopes it will drop down....maybe this should be another topic ???
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dogboy

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2003, 09:40:51 AM »

Is pot'o gold gone?  I led it 3 or 4 weeks ago and it was fine....
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Tomcat

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2003, 10:00:28 AM »

 In the 20 years that I have lived here, Black Pudding Gully has always been a waiting game. Once it does touch down then you may even have to wait until it is fat enough to feel like its right for you, while someone bolder or with more skill may do it skinny. I do not think it is OK to fire in bolts to dry tool up to it, particularly as this leads to , at least, delaying the route coming in as an ice climb. I have no issue with someone climbing a similar NEW route using bolts, even if it might touch down someday, because that would be the style someone chose to create a new route, but I do not support retrobolting in this situation. The pitons in Recompense Al are there because the route was climbed in the piton era, as you well know.I have not done Pegasus rock finish, but I would guess that is the style ( with pins ) an early party did it in and we should respect that, just as we should respect the 1st ascent of BPG as it was originally climbed. If it's not hard enough for ya, try it with the gear those guys had :)
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jay conway

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2003, 12:22:14 PM »


Gotta say I don't really give a damn about black pudding gulley, but I think HReynolds first post eludes to the fact that retrobolting is becoming more and more popular. I think that the way a route was done on the first ascent should be honored and kept that way, and left for future ascentionists to aspire too. I know for myself one of my personal goals in climbing is have the head that many of the old hardmen have and I will not acquire this if bolts are added to a line that a person did 20 years prior.

As for HReynolds not understanding the whole Mixed climbing ,well thats ridiculous in my mind. Mixed climbing is rad and certainly has its place.
jay
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Brian Johnstonb

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2003, 03:12:37 PM »

Re: Bolts on Black Pudding Gully.

I don't think this is the direction our local community should be taking with well established ice routes.  As a local climber I am respectfully asking those who put the bolts in on this route to remove them or I will.  As for the pins on Pegasus Rock Finish, c'mon.  Should I go bolt Dracula for early season rock ascents to get to a couple of fangs?  I don't think so.  Wait until routes are in good enough for you or don't do them.
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richard tugnut

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2003, 04:01:27 PM »

So next year if it forms 20ft higher than this year it should get 2 more bolts no/yes ?.
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mopowers

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2003, 04:09:12 PM »

  Brian Johnstonb said, "As a local climber I am respectfully asking those who put the bolts in on this route to remove them or I will."  
If i was a local i think i might be a little upset also. I have never climbed Black Pudding Gully and also dont think i know enough facts to make any sort of judgment. The fact i do know is the deed is done, Leave the bolts alone!
LOL. I like you honesty in your post Will. Hard to keep those little buggers straight isnt it.
                         David Powers
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dogboy

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Re: Was it really necessary??
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2003, 06:24:10 AM »

So here we go with this again....Brian, do you feel you own the rock/ice?!  I agree that the big problem with bolting the route is that it makes it much less likely that people will leave it alone long enough for it to touch down.  But...chopping bolts is just stupid!  The anti-bolting crowd likes to talk about how bolts scar the rock and aren't "clean"...well, I got news for you folks.  Chopping bolts doesn't repair the rock, it only makes the damage worse.  Now you've got a hole there that isn't useful for anyone except an A4 climber with hooks!  And, don't go on about how pins are more stylish and less damaging...how many times do you have to pound a pin in and take it out before there is a big gaping hole in the rock?  At least bolts can be used over and over again safely.
I'm not sure how I feel about what happened to BPG...it is traditionally an ice climb, and I'm afraid that the bolts will make it much less likely that it will ever touch down...but in the end, the deed is done, and chopping the bolts is stupid...
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