Was it really necessary??

[interested party]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here about the real events.  I believe Will sees what has happened and his post seem to suggest that he made a mistake.

BPG was done earlier this season in similar conditions without bolts, first unformed ascent if you will.  This climber did it without fanfare.  Unknowingly, Will bolted the second ascent of the unformed version.  The bolts were then chopped with the knowledge of the first ascensionist of the unformed version.

Climbers should not have to post their accomplishments or deeds on the internet.  Some climbers are actually climbing and having fun and never log into the forums.  The person who did the unformed version first is well known and his friends and climbing partners know what he did, because he told his community/friends.  The chopper also told his community/friends.  Maybe, the climbing community isn't just here!

So Admin Al not everyone thinks it is necessary to post their accomplishments on your site, amongst all of us anonymous posters, some like to just climb so I wouldn't hold your breath for an admission of the chopper.  You can always get out and ask some climbers outside of the cyber community whose done what, you might actually get some insight as to what is really going on.

So all you cyber junkies out there have fun typing I'll be at the crags and bars having some real community interaction and some fun!

[rockytop]

I don't think anyone was saying that the climbing community is just here on the internet, but we also can't be expected to go begging around the bars and every crag in NH looking to see if someone did a new route 2 days before. Many of those pushing the limits or new attitudes of climbing won't want to tip off another motivated climber as to a possible FA...especially around the N. Conway area. So, I for one am not likely to go around asking if any of the hardmen around had done the new route on such-n-such cliff before I attempt it. If you don't tell anyone but your drinkin' buddies about a new route or leave evidence there that it has been done, certainly it can't be expected that everyone will climb a line in the same style or claim it as a possible FA.

P.s.  Note: Please call me before attempting anything new in Smuggler's Notch. There will be a 5-day waiting period before notification and then I'll let you know if it's been done already.  

[Will Mayo]

Dear Mr/s. Interested Party (aka: anonymous coward):

First of all, I did not publish climbing this route in any way.  I did the route; Al shot a pic from the road on his own accord; Mark sent Al the pics he shot on his own accord.  I learned several years ago to steer clear of the climbing internet sites - exactly because of instances such as these.

Secondly, I don't understand why you are now choosing to remain anonymous.  How was I to know that it had been done?  Whom should I ask?  If it's to be kept secret when routes are done - or, not known by those not "in-the-know", then I fail to see how one could begrudge someone like me for doing something like I did.  Now, I am being humiliated and ostricized for doing something that I had no means nor capacity of preventing as per the clandestine nature of the ascent.  I would have openly and happily and humbly removed those stupid bolts myself if I had been asked/told to do so by SOMEONE WITH A NAME!  But, no, apparently you all prefer to remain anonymous and yet act very vociferously.  How about, "Hey, Will, you knucklehead, *I [insert name here]* did that thing w/out the bolts so you should remove them; or, I'm [insert name here] going to chop them".  That would be totally fine with me.  Absolutely - the error was and is all mine!!!!  But, this sort of thing reminds me of the Gestapo - if one maintains and enforces authority in secrecy, what is the control over the policing agency?  And, of course, the answer is: the policing agency itself.  

Is it okay for folks to secretly chop bolts?  It seems as though climbing in North Conway requires membership to a secret society which grants authority to climb to bolt to chop - should I request permission in writing to climb to bolt to chop a route?  To whom should the request be directed?  I know it's not via the internet.....let's see....Dear "The Local Climbers of North Conway" wherever and whoever you may be.....should you find this message in a bottle.....is it okay for me to climb in your neighborhood.....please please please!!!!

Ha, ha, ha....not very likely!  Please, by all means, keep your secrets, keep your crags, and keep acting like moronic, crazed, adolescent male dogs pissing on each other.

So, again, I'm sorry I ever placed my first two bolts.  However, if this is how you wish to behave - good riddance and it was nice not knowing you!

Chal Moko Chal Sarada ("Eat Well; Live Well" in Korean - and, it's intended UTTERLY ironically)

William H. Mayo

[Alex]

hmmm....not to provoke, but doesn't it seem a little strange that here we are at each others' throats over ONE FRIGGEN BOLT???


Right or not, appropriate or not, it's just a bolt for Heaven's sake...

there are much more imporant issues at stake for the climbing community...such as land access, etc.

just my two cents.

[mopowers]

  HA HA Ha, I love it! GO Will. Screw Conway, come on up to Willoughby and play. I will put in some bolts with you.
   
  David

[Lameboy]

Glad I don't live and climb with ya guys!

OK--I don't know diddle about the climb or contesting climbers--but I find the bolting of that little thing completely absurd.

Unformed version? What da f&ck is that? If its a not fully formed ice climb than why not make it a R /X mixer?

Even discounting the first ascensionist (who I think took a slap in the face), I think its presumptious to think that someone else couldn't knock it off as an "unformed."

So ya want names so ya can start sabotaging eachother's routes or other threats?

[Wimpyclimber]

From everything I've seen or heard, Will is a standup guy--bolder and more committed than most.  Most of the stuff he does makes me wake up in a cold sweat at night.  Try the Wishbone Arrete on Robson--he did it.  Anyone who knows anything about climbing in the Canadian Rockies knows the committment this route takes.  Pansy?  Please.  

[Admin Al]

I would have hoped that the discussion could take place without the name calling. it's really too bad that things have degenerated to that state.

al

[rpdoucette]

Did you ever notice that there are almost never any women acting like pinheads on the internet?  It's always windbag tough-talking guys, taking shots at people they never met.  Sounds like a bunch of highschoolers hanging out in a cumberland farms parking lot on a friday night, sipping beer out of a can hidden in a paper bag, hoping to grow up some day...

[Will Mayo]

I would also like to add that Jim Ewing is the warmest, kindest and smartest climber I have ever met.
Even if he wears women's underwear it should not take away from his fine climbing record.

[Alex]

dang, RP...you just had to reveal to the whole forum my favorite passtime (next to climbing), didn't you??

[rockytop]

NICE!!!!!!!  That's hilarious.  

[Admin Al]

so can one of you folks IN THE KNOW tell me just HOW the bolt cutters managed to do their do? did they climb the route again with no bolts, did they walk all the way around and rap down on the bolts, or did they climb it USING the frelling bolts themselves to rap back down and cut them?

inquiring minds...

al

[deep throat]

I had heard that the offending climbers anticipated just this sort of question and not wanting to ever be accused of climbing a route in bad style in order to chop bolts, skirted the issue by blasting the bolts into bolt heaven from a safe distance through the use of a couple Stinger missiles they had obtained through their contacts in a terrorist organization. This is not confirmed at this time. Investigators are trying to determine if the huge pile of debris beneath the climb is a result of the missile strikes, the excavation required to reach anything resembling solid rock during the placing of the bolts, or an illegal mining operation. It,s a shame to see these kinds of bolting/chopping issues arise among climbers; who are all doing what they believe is best for the climbing community, because inevitably it is the missiles that suffer.

[sparky]

According to my guide book NEI second Edition. Still have yet to receive my 3rd Ed...WTF Rick/Peter??
Black Pudding was first climbed in 1973 by A. J. Lefleur, Rick Wilcox and Peter Cole. Which actually was the First Recorded
Ascent. They did it with etriers on the initial pillar....Who has the actual "First Free Ascent"? I know we are talking ice climbing here (Aiding with tools and Crampons)

By my understanding of some of the previous posts, maybe I'm way off?? There is a first ascent every year. "unformed or formed"  By that token January 1st 1996 Myself and a Long time friend and climbing partner climbed the Black Dike...We were the First party on it that year....We marveled in the "BOLDNESS" of John Bouchards "Epic" first ascent and felt fortunate to be allowed the conditions and self "Boldness" to climb it also...Never considering taking any credit for any FA...
Formed or not year after year only the Actual  "First Ascent party" can get credit for that. Anyone that does it after that is not eligible for credit for that FA.
Though I think the bolts placed as of late were unnecessary from an ethics standpoint. I have never personally done the route.
Also I think the Blatant self righteous "chopping" of the bolts was ever more unnecessary. That does a lot more harm than the Initial placing of them. I have not actually seen the "chopped ones" so I can't say if it harmed the rock.
I have heard a lot of things Will has done (climbs and such) from various on-line sites and forums. Can't say I know him by any means.
From what I have heard he is also a "Hard man"...I've got full respect for it. Climb On Will...
For the sneaky guy going out and doing the chopping....Is your name Ken Nichols?? Or Officer StaDanko?

Look at Boulder, CO.....Those clowns climbing Ice out there....(What crappy Ice their is besides Ouray) Those guys come to blows on a regular basis due to half a million ice climbers wanting to climb any icicle that forms anytime, anywhere....
It is just plain crazy....Here we are lucky to have the Big Blue Climbs we have.....There are Bigger Picture Problems than this in the World right now....Damn it!... now I'm engaged in this too.
Oh well my .02 cents for what it is worth and for who ever cares....Al we need to Climb together this year....
Steve Jacques