Author Topic: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)  (Read 8510 times)

Offline Jim_Ewing

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2006, 06:03:35 pm »
Greg,

I think you need to go back and read the entire thread thoroughly.  I think you have missed many important points.

BTW, chalk in a cave does not wash off on its own.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 07:40:08 am by Jim_Ewing »

Offline meclimber

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2006, 08:54:09 pm »
Kind of a moot(sp) point to argue.  Repentence is a much better and definitly more classic rock climb than the devil and that is scraped to shit, expecially on the first two pitches.  No one cries over that.  Why? because it becomes a valid winter climb ice, minimal ice, or no ice.  I'd like to think that the majority of us crazy enough to do this stuff summer or winter would be able to determine what a valid winter route is.  Said guide in question from the post above was obviously high as a kite to climb a rock route with tools in rock season.   But it's f*cking badass to climb pretty much anything in winter, let alone a valid  NEW crazy mixed route.  That in a normal winter has ice at the begining and end.  Maybe if someone ground up, frees the whole roof this summer this argument might have some weight.  But until then...congratulations guys.
Jon Howard

Offline meclimber

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2006, 09:06:11 pm »
Sorry, a little buzzed up here, I didn't realize the thread was three pages.  Now that I 've read the whole thing I seem to agree with the most of you that it was a bad ass winter ascent.  I also think the guy who mentioned the fact that the majority of of our 'classic' 'pure' rock lines ( sorry my quotation marks) get climbed in the winter, is right on.  That sh*t is cool as hell.  I do alot of aid climbing and there is nothing that makes me feel like I hang a little lower than nailing something hard on a cold winter day. he he, that works two ways.  anyways, again, good job guys!
Jon Howard

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2006, 10:59:45 pm »
Eric. Not saying that you can't climb hard and push yourself. Just think that there needs to be some ice to warrent the use of tools. I know i am in the minority here and that my OP dosent mean much but that us what it is :)

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2006, 06:43:06 am »
FWIW everyone's opinion means something here. agree or disagree, what you think is worth something. the only thing that's worth-less is the name calling.

--al
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Offline meclimber

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2006, 07:29:09 am »
yeah Al, moderate! (sober now and going climbing!)
Jon Howard

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2006, 09:13:30 am »
I'm not for or against this sort of thing. I dry tool now when I mixed climb,and I'm not above pounding in a peg either.However,using the type of traditional winter ascents that took place through the last couple decades as justification does not hold water since as far as I know,not much drytooling went on in the early days. I know we never did it.You climbed the ice with tools and then you dropped them onto your leash,or holstered,and used your hands on the rock.

The tricky part of situations like this is what happens when people apply cutting edge techniques to moderate everyday climbs,which seems to be a common occurance.

So,if an aid climb gets climbed clean,there is often pressure on subsequent ascents to follow suit. So if Moby Grape got a winter ascent without the dry tooling,would we accept a drytooled ascent? Would we agree that it's better to climb the rock with our hands than with tools? What if the work of the devil was climbed without drytooling?

I have not seen the climb,nor led Remisson,nor climb at Jim or Eric's level. This is for discussion.

Tom

Offline DWarriner

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2006, 11:16:26 am »
"Jimmy crack pipe"

You really sound intelligent!

to paraphrase your view:

Jimmy crack pipe and I don't care.

There's a whole parody here, but I don't have the time...

http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/b034.html
There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

Offline DWarriner

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2006, 11:33:11 am »
So, to those points I say, Cathedral Direct is an established 'ice' climb (check the guidebook) that's been climbed by an alternate start. What Jim has accomlished is akin to the Direct Direct... rather than climbing a tree as was done during it's FA. he's pushed straight up the obvious weakness. Yeeha! And yes, to Tradman's point, Devil Made Me Dog It is an established route, but a shite route at best. Sure, I guarantee someone out there loves it (maybe it was their first 12a, who knows???), but it's a choss pile. No one is saying, "hey, wanna drytool China Beach just to see if we can?" That would be stupid. But, to drytool 25' of an existing rock route to reach never-before-freed climbing to get to a runnel of ice that connects from the lip of the roof to the top of Cathedral IS or SHOULD BE perfectly acceptable (and quite the run-on sentance!). And, in my opinion, significantly more asthetic than a chipped/drilled/filed/chossy rock route. It has nothing to do with the fact that the first ascentionist cranks hard... it has to do with a plum line... freeing an aid route... opening your mind to possibilities... 

When I first saw this, I had some concerns about dry tooling in the cave, but I think Eric's [and Jim's]  points are sound and have no issues with their reasoning.

Good job, guys.

The "Man scale" however - WTF?

Judging from all the controvesy though, I'd have to say that the route name is quite apt.

-David
There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

Offline DWarriner

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And one more.....
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2006, 11:41:57 am »
Repentence is a much better and definitly more classic rock climb than the devil and that is scraped to shit, expecially on the first two pitches.  No one cries over that.  Why? because it becomes a valid winter climb ice, minimal ice, or no ice. 

The other thing about repentence is that since it is a chimney/off-width all the crampon scratching has very little effect on how it is rock climbed.  If you're mixed climbing a 5.10 face climb and you chisel off the crucial crux crimper** off with your tool, then you've destroyed the climb.  On Repentnce, whether you  stuff your body into 16" chimney or a 16.05" chimney is the same thing.

-David

**Coinincidentally, "Crucial Crux Crimper" is the name of my band. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 11:44:46 am by DWarriner »
There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

Offline Jim_Ewing

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2006, 01:59:28 pm »
Believe it or not I'm going to defend Greg here for a moment.  I'm in a forgiving mood; celebrating my child's 5th birthday may have something to do with it.

The 'Jimmy Crack Pipe' bit is not Greg's inception.  It actually came from an attempt at the Maine Rock Gym by some to give me a nickname.  Receiving a nickname there is kind of a brand of acceptance by its inhabitants.  Fortunately it did not stick but there are still one or two individuals who insist on continuing to use it, possibly as both a term of endearment and an insult.

Just wanted to let everyone know the scoop on this so as to not have you all pass judgment on Greg.  As for the rest of his post, well, flame away he deserves it. ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 07:49:55 pm by Jim_Ewing »

Offline eastcoastblowhard

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2006, 07:53:43 pm »
Can I just ask one simple question?  Who the F*&K are any of us to determine what is choss and what is not choss?

You deem TDMMDI as a shite climb but Molsens is ok?  Pull your heads out of your arses please.

I wonder you assclowns would say if I bolted the new route?  Maybe I will do that.  Why not bring it down to my level since that is what everyone else seems to do?

Selfesh ACTS:

Unairation (super stupid)
Moselns adness (no, wait, everything in the cave)
The drilling hooks in the cave last year.
Most of Wiamea
Bamboozled
The bolted hold at Sundown
Work of the Devil   

The list goes on throughout the world but does Cathedral really need to suffer the efects of some dim witted crack smoker ego scraping upthe already chossy rock to create yet another IMO shite route?

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony

Offline Eric McCallister

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2006, 07:27:33 am »

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony



Thanks for the thoughtful "simple question", and for all the very flattering things you say about Jim and I. Your points may be valid, but your delivery of them is a little sophmorish... but to each his own... Wait a minute, let me say that again... TO EACH HIS OWN! I am not the one to decide if something is a choss pile, but I am more than welcome to form an opinion as such -- which I have. As far as deciding what and what should not be destroyed... the Cathedral Direct Roof and ALL of the routes in there have seen WAY more destruction than the non-effects that this new winter mixed route have caused. Go there, climb the route, then come on here and blow-hard about it. If it hadn't been said that the route was done would you even know to care? I doubt it. You can't look at it and tell. We did not damage this route... we climbed pre-existing PIN SCARS and previously chipped holds. And, as for what others do, we cannot control that. But that alone is not justification for not doing it in the first place. As much as you may enjoy living in your bubble, I don't want to be there. Seriously... Man has been to the moon. Now there is a whole bunch of NASA crap up there. Is that justification for not going? Hell no! Sure, we ALL should be more careful and considerate of others, but the fear of one person not being so should not deter everyone else from being responsible and progressing. And, if some Canadians come down to try the route, cool! We, at least, have absolutely nothing against our friends up north. And finally, I particularly like your selfish and selfserving comment... I feel certain that your climbing is somehow bettering the greater good. I know that because of it we are somehow closer to a cure for cancer or ending world hunger. I, on the other hand, aside from contributing to no less that three climbers' organizations and thousands of dollars through volunteer work (including self-publishing a guidebook with 100% of profits going to anchor replacement and improvements at the New River Gorge), just climb for me because I enjoy it. I climb routes that I like and that appeal to me. It's so selfish I know...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:29:33 am by Eric McCallister »

Offline Jim_Ewing

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2006, 08:51:31 am »
Can I just ask one simple question?  Who the F*&K are any of us to determine what is choss and what is not choss?

You deem TDMMDI as a shite climb but Molsens is ok?  Pull your heads out of your arses please.

I wonder you assclowns would say if I bolted the new route?  Maybe I will do that.  Why not bring it down to my level since that is what everyone else seems to do?

Selfesh ACTS:

Unairation (super stupid)
Moselns adness (no, wait, everything in the cave)
The drilling hooks in the cave last year.
Most of Wiamea
Bamboozled
The bolted hold at Sundown
Work of the Devil   

The list goes on throughout the world but does Cathedral really need to suffer the efects of some dim witted crack smoker ego scraping upthe already chossy rock to create yet another IMO shite route?

It's more than your selfish act Jim and Eric.  What happens when winter at cathedral becomes a warzone filled with candian assasins drytooling up rock routes?

Once again Screw the route - my only real question is what makes you the person to decide what should and shouldnt be detroyed?

Absolutely Selfish, SelfServing, and weak.   F'ing weak man.

Tony


Dad?  Is that you?

Offline eastcoastblowhard

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Re: Work Of The Devil (M7+/Man-2)
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2006, 11:36:28 am »
If I were you father I would have kicked your ass instead - believe that.

 ???