Accident on Willeys?

[DWarriner]

http://www.alpinerecreation.co.nz/ShortRoping.pdf

I've always thought that water ice from about 20-40 degrees is some of the most deceivingly dangerous stuff.  For all intents and purposes, you can't count on an arrest (unless you're in a movie), the only way you can get a positive placement with a tool is by bending over to the point where you are crawling - which is just stupid.  So you are commited to French techniqe using a tool as a cane and relying on your own balance/skill.  If you are tied in to someone who is just learning this stuff, you are really at the mercy of luck.

I can't imagine taking an inexperienced party up Willey's without at least one of the following

1) a lot of snow
2) at least one tool in the ice
3) at least one piece of pro in between

It's not like out west on a glacier, where you have a couple of shots at making an arrest stick.  One gust of wind and, poof, you're shooting down the slide. 

It seems like we're missing some information.

-David

[docn]

The simple fact that a guide and client fell 400' tells us just how " safe" this technique really is.

[tradmanclimbz]

Self arrests simply do NOT work on NE water ice!!! Watched my partner try it on odels years ago. Couldn't believe how quickly he acelerated We were simo soloing so nothing i could do but watch

[slobmonster]

Am I glad or mortified that I logged in today?

You lucky motherfuckers.  Seriously.  I've been lucky enough to have been lucky with clients, and unlucky without... the truth of the matter is that we ALL knew that Willey's is simply the most dangerous spot in the White Mountains, described perfectly as the "Devil's Playground."

[climbhigh]

In my opinion what happens at times is that a person with great skill can get very comfortable almost too comfortable on the easy climbs. They tend to take it for granted because they can and have climbed harder routes and have never had a mis hap. I was reading an article awhile back where it was saying that Formula 1 race car drivers are one of the worst drivers on the road, but yet on the track they are at their peak performance. The bottom line is that we all make lousy judgement calls every once in a while and are able to get away with most of them but every once in a while things do come crashing down around us, and that is what I call a learning experience. Yeh maybe the guide was negligent and maybe it was poor judgement but that was his call and lets just be thankful that he and the client walked away from the event.

[fbs]

DWarriner

THANKS FOR THE LINK

http://www.alpinerecreation.co.nz/ShortRoping.pdf

it is very interesting if not sobering

[Admin Al]

David - this is a very detailed and amazing link. thank you so much for posting it. I strongly urge everyone to read through it. if you must skip through the technical details of the physics, keep going through the rest. it is highly informative.

here is just one interesting quote:

Do you really think you can hold the fall of an entire party with just
the pick of your axe??

-That is if you manage to get into your self-arrest position.

Not a single case is known of a guide holding a client by self-
arresting, once the client has fallen down a hard snow or ice slope, and
the guide has lost control of the rope from the belay hand!

YOW!!!

--al

[tradmanclimbz]

Read jack turners book Teewionot awhile back. Highly recomended!! His experience was that most of the fatal falls in the tetons happened on steep snow.

[krankonthis]

you are all just a bunch of god damn hens!  gossip, gossip, gossip. why do you all have to hate.  embrace the love for your fellow climber.  shit happens and we HAVE ALL BEEN there. 
 
sam

[tradmanclimbz]

No hate here, just discussing how much most of us  dislike low angle ice

[Admin Al]

you are all just a bunch of god damn hens!  gossip, gossip, gossip. why do you all have to hate.  embrace the love for your fellow climber.  shit happens and we HAVE ALL BEEN there.

well sure, we've all BEEN THERE. I don't think that anyone here is gossiping about the incident. in fact only one person has asked who it was! basically everyone is talking about the pros & cons of the technique in a very productive manner and I will say that this incident has brought up a number of things about short roping that I didn't know. Daved W's link to the NZMGA PDF about the technique was very informative.

info yes, gossip - HARDLY!

--al

[DLottmann]

The simple fact that a guide and client fell 400' tells us just how " safe" this technique really is.

Any technique, used in-approprietly, is not safe.  The correct choice to solo, simu-solo, short-rope, running belay, 5th class belay, fix ropes (aid) etc. is not always clear, and is one of the biggest challenges in alpine traveling.  Moving slow and 5th classing (leader climbs, places pro, anchors, second climbs) a long easy route could be just as dangerous.

Good Judgement Comes From Experience

Experience Comes From Bad Judgement

I love that quote!

[km59801]

We all have not Been There.  What the hell kind of statement is that.  I certainly haven't dropped a beginner who is paying me, or anyone for that matter who has put their confidence in me.  Accidents like this show how dillusional and irresponsible the guide services often are.  Short roping is a technique best left to the professionals and not fleets of part timers. 
P.S.  Anybody want to go rap the Dike this summer? 
Kevin

[punxnotdead]

I agree, for what it is worth...... I have NEVER and would NEVER intentionally put a beginner in a situation that increases the chances of injury or death.  The idea is to minimize the risk, NOT to maximize the risk.  I just hope the guide is reprimanded appropriately and that the client doesnt tell everyone what happened to them.  The fallout could be disasterous for the business.

[Marc]

Bah!  Why coddle the clients?  You don't want to give them the idea that it's all sunshine and roses.  Toughen them up a little!  The really telling thing about this accident is that after the fall, the guide went back up and the client followed.  That's my kind of ice lesson!