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[brianfulton]

Somehow, the argument that having permanent anchors, bolts, at the TOP of a climb degrads the original nature of the climb does not make any sense to me. The top is where you walk off, or descend somehow. By definition the climb is over. How does it possibly have anything to do with the climb?

If one claims bolts clutter the landscape, perhaps that arguement has some validity. But to say a set af anchors, irregardless of their nature (e.g plant a new tree), at the top of a cliff area in the woods degrads the original nature of the climb is not logical to me.

[punxnotdead]

Around and around we go. 

I agree that the Practice slabs are just that: PRACTICE slabs.  The bolt anchors when they were put in really helped clear up the FUBAR that inevetibly happens at the top of those climbs and allows for a cleaner and safer day.  I DONT think anchors should be put everywhere (we have had this discussion before), but geesh chopping and re-chopping is just plain selfish and proves nothing but stupidity. 

BTW- I still want to know who destroyed Coffin Nail.

[tradmanclimbz]

Otis, if you think that bolt wars are great you should maby seek some professional help   maby work on the anger management a bit

[om]

I personally don't care much about any particular situation and Ok with whatever consensus local community arrives at. What bugs me is the dynamic nature of the situation.
One weekend you come in and there is no longer a rap off the Onion Head. Fine, ok, since I didn't bring my shoes I'll go over and rap from the Saigon. Next weekend turns out there is a new rap from the tree on top of Deidre but there is no way to get off the P3 ledge - just a sorry looking single sling on a tree with a single biner obviously left by someone right before me. Ok, add a biner, rap. Too bad I didn't know when I was on top - this time I actually had my shoes with me...
Can you guys get together, decide on whatever it is you want to do with the cliff and stick to the plan? I know I'm asking a lot, but so far the only thing we can count on is a pile of crap on the Upper Refuse belay  

[OtisHo]

Why do you infer I'm angry? I think of bolt wars as an intelectual argument, perhaps the term is the wrong one to use. Many of my good friends are sport climbers and think that more bolts should be added to climbs. We agree to disagree on the subject but we still have fun arguing about it. I personally feel that climbers should take resposibility for their own safety. As a general idea I do not feel people should add bolts to climbs or add anchors unless there is a very good reason to do so. I do not think that there is a good justification for adding them to They Died. We can agree to disagree.

In an earlier post I was refering to the original placement of the bolts on They died and Birds Nest having been placed with out the consent of the climbing community.

[Dave]

"they were put in without the approval of the local comunity"

OtisHo, Who is the local comunity? Everyone in the valley you talk to has a different oppinion and thinks thiers is the only one that counts. You guys don't even want to consider the oppinion of the first ascent party. Trying to get approval for anything in the valley is a f*****g joke. I have tried. I collected many, many e-mails from valley locals approving of my proposed project only to get a call one night from a well known valley climber who stated "I don't care what people think. If you place the proposed bolts I will chop them within 24 hours."



 I propose filling all the cracks at the North end with concrete to give you guys something new to fight about.

[punxnotdead]

And on it goes 

[strandman]

EXCELLENT ! tHIS STILL THE MOST DEVISIVE CLIMBING COMMUNITY IN AMERICA! At least we have some non PC types that will speak up

[gags]

Chopping and adding new bolts should be considered vandalism.  I wonder if the state imposed a $10,000 fine and a year in prison for offenders if this would deter anyone.  I am surprised the forest service has not stepped in yet.  Since the climbing community can't figure this out, maybe the state should. 

gags 

[tradmanclimbz]

gags. thats crazy. if the forest circus stepped in and fined us for putting up rts were would we climb?  Otis, your quote was "I'm glad that there are bolt wars"  that seems a bit psyco to me.  I don't mind arguing but certainly do not want to have to get physicaly involved. Its just crazy that these simple minded Zelots go after things like a rap station at the top of a practice climb??? condone smashing bolts that were placed on lead? and then they go ahead and bolt their own projects

[gags]

I agree with you Tradman, but if we can not come to a resolution the forest service might have to step in even though no one would want to see that.  Otherwise it seems like it is all or nothing.  As for where we would climb if we can't bolt climbs, well I am sure no one has climbed everything this state has to offer.  Sometimes hiking more than 100 yards to the cliff's base makes for the most enjoyable climbing.  There doesn't seem to be an ethics war in the truly wilderness areas of the state.  Doesn't cathedral have enough established routes?

gags

[bag11s]

Apparently at Cathedral, for reasons that I may never be able to comprehend, bolting a sport climb and placing a two bolt anchor on a practice/beginner climb or at belay stations on popular multipitch routes are considered different animals. One look at the Cathedral cave with it,s proximal grid bolted variants should let anyone know that North Conway is only different from Rumney in the level of hypocrisy exhibited by some of it,s local watchdogs. The main difference between the two venues is that at Cathedral- sport climbs are bolted from aluminum push up ladders, rather than from rappel, so I guess that makes all those bolts ok. Of course, at Rumney there,s no reason to walk along the cliff tops, since pretty much all the routes end at very nice permanent anchors just below. Then again, this robs one of the true summit bagging experience to be had at Cathedral, damn the verdure.
   

[tradmanclimbz]

Pleanty of ladder work at rumny as well. there is a diference between top anchors and bolted belays and sport climbs. each  situation is diferent, i may argue for a top anchor at the noth end and be venomently against a bolted belay on an established multi pitch climb. diferent animals entirely..

[ed_esmond]

"Pleanty of ladder work at rumny as well..."--tradman

well, i can't speak for anyone else; but, i've never used a ladder to bolt a route at rumney.

"North Conway is only different from Rumney in the level of hypocrisy exhibited by some of it,s local watchdogs." ---bags11

as for the "sport" routes in the cathedral cave; most are just not that well done...  at rumney, we tried to have a high level of craftmanship and pride in our handiwork.  that is the major difference. 

nconway has always been a hotbed of strong climbers, strong egos and even stronger hypocrisy; we tried to be a hotbed of quality routes, no matter what the grade...  (of couse, if you do happen to find and bolt a couple of the hardest routes in the country, that's a pretty cool thing...) we've tried to keep the hypocrisy to the minimum.

"Sometimes hiking more than 100 yards to the cliff's base makes for the most enjoyable climbing."  ---gags

a quick reading of a previous topic shows that certain people have a problem when some motivated climbers are willing to walk a lot more than "100 yards"  to more remote areas to find "most enjoyable climbing..." in a style they like.

and as for the guy who think "bolt wars" are a good idea... try living and climbing in ct or any surrounding state.  the whole concept of "bolt wars"  would get real old... real quick. 

most "bolt wars" don't have anything to do with being "anti"-pc, they have to do with one guy who thinks his tiny pee-pee is bigger than everybody elses... and is afraid that everyone else will find out the truth.

respectfully,

ed e

[tradmanclimbz]

Ed, about 8 years ago I saw a bunch of alluminum ladders stashed up at Wiamea so I assumed that they were for setting rts. Actually there was a wooden ladder up there last year?  I have no problem with that if it is a sport climb that you are building. I don't agree with everything at Rumny but for the most part I think it is an excelent Model for a sport Area.  As for cathedral  I wouldn't want to see the sport method applied but it certainly would be nice if they could at least use some comon sense and not have a small handfull of bullys trashing the place.  There are many Trad areas that have allowed mixed climbs and rap stations to exist allongside gear  climbs without molestation..