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Author Topic: They Died...but not laughing  (Read 2012 times)

bag11s

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2006, 10:26:24 PM »

You say different animals entirely- maybe so, maybe not. A lot of bolted anchors have appeared on "established" multi pitch climbs over the years, safe anchors that everybody ever after both belay & rap from. The protection on many established climbs is constantly evolving. Having enthusiastically enjoyed more than a few both trad & sport routes throughout the region for a pretty long time, I've seen all kinds of changes. Rapping off of a blueberry bush when nothing else could be contrived is not one of my happier memories, although it was part of the adventure experience on that particular route.

Some ladders may have been used at Rumney, where else will you find a more pragmatic group of FAs. I was being ironical. The community service of a few devoted people there has created hundreds of routes that thousands of people pit themselves against and enjoy. They have achieved a considered consensus on what constitutes a great sport climb and know how to put it in.

The great things about climbing in our trad areas in N Conway / Cannon are the outstanding rock architecture and the creative lines scoped and established by pioneering climbers over the last century. Improved belays in an era of skyrocketing popularity in the sport do nothing to cheapen their contributions. Having people get injured over and over again on the standard cave route, say, when it could be prevented so easily by adding one bolt seems beyond goofy. This particular problem came up for community review every year for years. There are many other examples, I am sure.  
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crabnebula

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2006, 11:01:21 PM »

you know there were bolt meetings, there were agreements IN THE VALLEY and with the climbing COMMUNITY at hand.........however, if individuals decide to take there own beliefs and ram them down the throat of everyone that s/he JUST had a conversation with, then that is the problem.....the individual that has been responcible for the bolt chopping has been warned by a system that will not fail. Bolt chopping is over, at the North End. The bolts WILL be put back as soon as a functioning drill is around. AND anyone who wants to chop them, you will be dealing with the town police for property damage, and will go to jail as this offence on cathedral is a state offense.

Enjoy your bickering.
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Erik_N

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2006, 06:44:07 AM »

Just to help clarify some things:
1. Cathedral and Whitehorse are in Echo Lake State Park part of the New Hampshire State Park System. They are in no way related to the Forest Service other than neighbors. 
2. Unless you own your own cliff you can,t do what ever you want, although at times it appears that way.  The USFS has a management plan with 2 pages of climbing specific regulations.  The State parks plan is more general but climbing easily fits into many of the regulations.  These regulations are very reasonable and most people would agree to them.
3. Who enforces it?  The climbers, climbers see the cliff everyday not the  authorities .  Authorities will get involved if they have a  strong case and if people come forward to complain. 
4. Local consensus agrees (in my opinion) when 1 of 2 things happen. 1. A public meeting is held and a majority vote is taken. 2. Time has dictated the action is accepted whether it,s through apathy or through approval.  The anchor on They Died has been there since anyone can remember. Roughly 14? years ago the pin anchor became a bolted anchor and as far as I can remember stayed that way until they were chopped last year.  That is community consensus.
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old_school

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2006, 07:33:14 AM »

You guys need some regulation up there because you can't manage it yourselves.

Todd,

I have suggested this for years, but there really doesn't seem to be any support for such and endeavor. I share the blame in a lot of this nonsense as I live up here, and I too and tired of the BS that surrounds this abortion of ethics, but I have to admit (and I can't be alone in this) that without a governing body...I feel a bit powerless to do anything. We should be able to govern this ourselves, but there seem to be two extremes here that have had a difficult time with any kind of dialogue. Well, this too shall pass, but in the meantime, we all remain a bit frustrated...   ???
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climbhigh

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2006, 09:08:03 AM »

Eric, in light of your statement does that mean that the bolted anchor on Thin Air will/would be able to be replaced? That anchor was there for a good many years and was chopped by a mis directed individual.
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JBeta

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2006, 09:57:06 AM »

I find this ongoing discussion to be quite absurd and I will state my reasons.

1. The "bolt war" in North Conway seems to be focused on bolted anchors. Many of the people who consider themselves hyper-traditional hold areas such as Yosemite, Eldorado, J-Tree, etc in high esteem. These are the traditional strongholds of the country. All of these places heavily employ the use of bolted anchors. I agree that bolts should not be added to a trad pitch, but placing a bolted anchor on a heavily travelled route just makes good sense. Just ask the locals in Squamish or at Indian Creek or in your beloved Yosemite.

2. Why are the anchors on an incredibly popular route under scrutiny while the bolt-on gym hold at Sundown continues to exist? If you want to chop something, why don't you chop this blatant abberation? Also, a route within 100 yards of the practice slabs, The Mercy, is almost completely manufactured. All this within the confines of your "pristine" traditional sanctuary.

But, now that I think about it, I wonder if the "anchor choppers" can actually get to the top of the routes previously mentioned. 
 
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ToddSH

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2006, 10:35:55 AM »

The gym hold at sundown has been removed as of this summer. What an eyesore that was. It amazes me that the gym hold has been up there since the 80's. The scene up in conway is such an oxymoron. Todd
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JBeta

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2006, 10:54:54 AM »

It is good that the hold is now gone.

I agree that the scene is oxymoronic.  I am happy to visit North Conway, but I wouldn't want to live there. Am I wrong to assume that the anchor chopping is being perpetrated by just a few people?

Say what you want to say about Rumney, but all is pretty peacefull over here on the other side of the hill.
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punxnotdead

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2006, 04:10:09 PM »

It is funny how people keep brining up Rumney when trying to figure out what is ethically right in N. Conway.  It is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Until someone or organization steps up to the plate and offers a concrete definition and a consensus on what the ethics should be at the NC crags, then it will be Anarchy as usual.  More rock will be destoyed and more people will bitch and complain (myself included).

Another thing.  This consensus needs to be adopted and carried out by the local guide services and trickle down from there.  As of now, it appears that they all do whatever they want with no regard to what others think about it.  I am not saying that what they have done or will do is bad or good, but what they do is out of their own little tribes and followers.
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slobmonster

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2006, 04:31:18 PM »

Another thing.  This consensus needs to be adopted and carried out by the local guide services and trickle down from there.  As of now, it appears that they all do whatever they want with no regard to what others think about it.  I am not saying that what they have done or will do is bad or good, but what they do is out of their own little tribes and followers.
Though many North Conway guides also serve as volunteers with MRS, and interact within the community in a variety of ways, linking bolt & anchor promulgation (as you describe) with the guide services and climbing schools is not quite the complete picture.  Part of teaching climbing is exposing guests, students, and clients with the local perspective on things such as our bolting history and the strange evolution of anchors.  Marc always used the traverse pitch on Thin Air as an analogue for the whole shebang, and he did so effectively and with candor.

When I was living and guiding in the Mt Washington Valley I frequently chopped superfluous and unnecessary tat/poot/bail slings, and updated "legit" tree-based rap station with dark cord or webbing and steel rings.  Based on OM's description, the clean rap from the top of Diedre has been yanked (in my opinion the birch tree above the corner is NOT the way to go, btw).

I also fixed a stopper behind the tree on Airation to save that puny piece of flora from further abuse (is this still up there?  I hope so... keeping that wee tree in good shape will mean that the spot won't sprout a 2-bolt anchor, as has been suggested elsewhere. 

And, to be fair, I updated older/rattier bolt anchors with modern hardware, most recently (pre-chopping) changing the They Dies anchor from its prior vertical orientation to one horizontal, adding chain to the Birds Nest Anchor, etc.

What you describe, the "trickle-down," is exactly what myself and co-workers, friends, and climbing partners hoped would be implied.  We were nervous, however, about making such a link explicit.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 04:46:00 PM by slobmonster »
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punxnotdead

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2006, 04:49:01 PM »

I may have implied that the Guide services in the area should be the ones who create and adopt the ethical stadards for the area.  This should be first agreed upon by the local community (well advertised and attended), then adopted by the Guides to help spread the word.  The guides, on most occasions have been the best voice of our community and certainly would help to enforce such standards.

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strandman

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2006, 05:17:04 PM »

The entire "local" moniker is a load of shit. I climbed 4 days a week in the area and my partners house was at the base of the crag, yet we were "boston " climbers .

Bless anarchy !
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punxnotdead

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2006, 07:00:35 PM »

Bless anarchy !

"Anarchy sounds OK to me, but who is going to clean the sewers?  You?"  - Jello Biafra

Come on, John, you mean to tell me that your word is worth nothing.  That to me is a "load of Shit."
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DLottmann

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2006, 07:49:08 PM »

...changing the They Dies anchor from its prior vertical orientation to one horizontal...

This could probably be it's own topic but I have often wondered about this.  For reference the anchor at the top of Rapid Transit seems to be the best kind of bolted rap anchor you could have.  Two bolts, stacked vertically, connected with a chain and a fat ass steel rap ring.  Pretty much perfect equalization and zero extension... why do we but bolted anchors in horizontically?

And to get really nick-picky:

If it is horizontal, we should put chains, or atleast two rap rings each so the rope doesn't twist when you pull it.
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slobmonster

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Re: They Died...but not laughing
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2006, 08:21:46 PM »

Two bolts, stacked vertically, connected with a chain and a fat ass steel rap ring.  Pretty much perfect equalization and zero extension... why do we but bolted anchors in horizontically?
Yeah, I am in agreement with you here.  These are great, durable, and clean-pulling.

The problem with the original vertically-oriented They Died anchor was the ring hangers installed there; when rappelling, the load was only taken by the top bolt. 

But if you're going to go do it right, I think that now you have your opportunity.

This is also a nice option, allowing for TR-ing through one's own 'biners, which the last climber simply has to unclip.
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