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Author Topic: maintainance bolting on existing routes  (Read 199 times)

Admin Al

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maintainance bolting on existing routes
« on: May 14, 2003, 12:36:00 PM »

should bolts be used on existing routes when the rock where a pin is placed or at a place where trad protection previously existed is no longer there? of course if a pin simply falls out, it can be replaced - and I'm not talking about new routes, only existing ones.

an example is Robinson Crusoe. on P2 there was a down facing pin behind a flake on the right, before you step into the v-groove. the flake & pin came off last summer. without it there was certain groundfall, and the climbing in the groove is already R. some people don't think adding the bolt was "kosher." I think it was logical and smart.

is there consensus???

Al
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dogboy

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2003, 01:41:39 PM »

This just seems to me to be a ridiculous debate.  Why would anyone object to making sure pro on existing climbs is safe?  I understand why retrobolting is controversial, but if a pin or bolt placed by the first ascent party fails or becomes unsafe, how could anyone in good conscience object to replacing it?

What bothers me most about this debate, and even about the retrobolting debate, is the not-so-subtle undercurrent of FA ownership that exists.  NOBODY owns the crags, routes, etc.  Not the first ascent party, not the last ascent party, nobody.  While I agree that the FA party has certain perogatives concerning their route, I just don't believe that anyone has absolute say over any stripe of rock.  And I think that there is a responsibility to put up routes in a reasonable style that some FA's ignore.  For instance, I don't really think that it is responsible for a strong 10 or 11 leader to lay claim to a bunch of 5.7 or 5.8 lines, but leave them R or X.  That kind of behavior seems to be more about keeping the unwashed masses off of one's personal cliff than about enhancing the climbing experience in that area.  Do you put up new routes so that you can own and control them, or so that others can enjoy them after you?  I'm not saying that all routes need to be made absolutely safe...just that I feel at times that folks putting up routes sometimes think more about their own egos than about creating a climb that others can enjoy....

Again, as for making already existing fixed gear safe....no one can really mount a sensible argument against that one.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 01:44:25 PM by jeffc »
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Brrr

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climbing.com Anchor Replacement Initiative
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2003, 05:55:11 PM »

Anyone here know anything about this?  Here's a quote from the latest issue Climbing Magazine online  www.climbing.com, under the heading -

Climbing Magazine launches the Anchor Replacement Initiative

"...The goal of the ARI is to create safe, clean anchors at the country,s most utilized crags: Rifle Mountain Park, CO; North Conway, NH; Tahquitz and Suicide, CA; and Red River Gorge, KY, will be the first areas addressed. The ARI will replace anchors on 300 routes in 2003, and become an ongoing program. The ARI is sensitive to bolting related issues and will only engage in replacing existing anchors."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Dave Woodford

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2003, 08:40:40 PM »

As a climbing neophyte, I'm not sure how my opinion will be received but I'll offer it anyway.  I don't want to see a lot of new bolts put in but, I think that replacing old and damaged bolts is a good idea for climber safety.  I would hate to see someone injured because an old bolt broke.

Woody
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Chris Dubé

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2003, 05:38:28 AM »

And the debate goes on about bolts.  One concern is that without a hammer it is not possible to determine the reliability of a pin in a crack. I have been on many routes, some in NH (Willard, Cannon) where a pin was loose and could be removed by hand.  Years ago an anchor on the ice climb Great Madness came out when I tugged on the sling.  It was simple enough to hammer it in with my ice tool, however, the same thing happened on The Fuge (sp?) rock route on Cannon and I had no hammer.  I know that pins next to cracks are obnoxious, but pins require much more frequent maintenance than bolts.
Thanks for feedback,
Chris
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Admin Al

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2003, 08:22:31 AM »

the anchor inititive is actually in collaberation with North Face. this was brought up at the MRS meeting the other night. apparently Brad White received an inquiry from them about the assistance and responded that we were certainly interested in participating. since replacing bolts is an expensive proposition, any help is appreciated. I'll try & get Brad on line to explain what's happening.

Al
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daveg

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2003, 12:33:22 PM »

From the original question.I think each case needs to be looked at on an individual basis.The replacement on Robinson Crusoe is completely appropriate in my opinion. It does not change the overall experience of the route. The piece that was replaced is vital to maintaining the original line as it was.I would hate to see that little flake above and off to the left which takes an alien go though.
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Admin Al

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2003, 12:38:50 PM »

Dave,

that's about in agreement with my views. thanks for responding. I'll tell ya, if you're putting an Alien behind that flake & counting on it holding a fall... I don't know. and if it goes there will have to be something put there, cause as minimal as it is, that's all there is.

Al
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Al Hospers
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Erik N

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2003, 05:02:02 AM »

 I'm getting a list together of routes that need bolts replaced.  I'm mostly interested in replacing 1/4" bolts and cleaning up anchors. I'm not adding bolts and don't plan to replace pins with bolts. I know the list is a mile long but what do folks out there think is a priority.  
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Admin Al

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2003, 07:15:00 AM »

great idea Eric. let me know & as usual I'll be happy to help out. here are a few thoughts. I know we've talked about a couple of these before.

1) the crux bolt (at least) on Lady Slipper

2) many of the bolts & anchors on the Whitehorse Slabs, like Slabs Direct. get rid of the chains & reposition the belay anchors so they are level horizontally.

3) the 3 crappy bolts on P1 of Diagonal, above and right of the Armagedon belay.

4) probably all of the bolts on Lost Souls (they were placed very shallow)

I'm sure there are more, but I can't remember them right now.

Al
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Al Hospers
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Recognize

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2003, 08:07:19 AM »

Faux Pas Arete, Edge of The World

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dogboy

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2003, 08:24:53 AM »

Definitely the bolts protecting the crux moves on p2 and p3 of Children's Crusade...since all the bolts on p1 were replaced recently, this would seem pretty logical (especially since the bolts on p2&3 really suck).
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Admin Al

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2003, 09:15:13 AM »

how about Ventilator?

al
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Al Hospers
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daveg

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2003, 06:47:58 AM »

I climbed Ventilator the other day. That route seems to be in OK shape in terms of the bolt condition. The first ring is old but it looks OK. The operative word here being "looks" I guess. As far as the alien mentioned earlier on Robinson Crusoe, that is definitely part of the character of climbing that route. I would think it would take a pretty good pull. Again the operative word being "think". Adding a bolt at that location would be darn close to the line of changing the character of that climb. I'm not advocating either argument. I hope that alien continues to be an option and I definitely hope I don't field test it. Has anyone got a field report on that one, no doubt someone has, probably before cams as well.
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Jeff

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Re: maintainance bolting on existing routes
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2003, 09:32:36 AM »

The quarter inch bolt near the top of A Stitch in Time on The Guide's Wall (behind Bouchard's cabin site) was pretty suspect in the summer of 2001, and other pro in the near vicinity is also pretty bad. This leader definitely didn't want to fall from above the bolt.  Jeff Lea
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