Author Topic: Heads-Up!  (Read 2292 times)

Scott MacPherson

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« on: May 31, 2003, 01:19:42 PM »
Just wanted to give you all the 411 on a hellacious experience I had with a gear store in Moab, Utah.  Pagan Mountaineering ripped me off for $607.00.  Watch your wallets around these guys.  I just started-up a web page in hopes of warning

Offline slobmonster

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2003, 05:51:21 PM »
i've been a customer of pagan every time i've been through moab in the last several years... and i've never had anything but the nicest of experiences in there.  if you paid with a credit card they probably mis-typed the amount, or something inncocuous like that.  have you tried calling to rectify what you believe is malfeasance?
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Offline DWarriner

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2003, 07:14:53 PM »
Need more information.  What exactly happened?  

There are no stupid questions - only stupid answers.

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2003, 01:43:35 PM »
Some of the questions asked regarding my "heads-up" can be answered on  Brian Jonas/pagan cashed my bank check for $607.00 for a pair of Millet Everest boots on 3-17-03.  More than 75 days later now, and I have no boots. They keep telling me they're on the way, after having promised me delivery within 30 days. I asked for a refund on 4-30 and they told me store credit only, when the law permits me a full refund after 30 days of non-delivery. Now they tell me the "check is in the mail", laugh and hang-up on me. One day the boots have been shipped, the next, the check is in the mail. Incidently, the postal inspectors are on the case, the consumer protection agency is on the case, the police in Moab have been notified.  These people have lied to me REPEATEDLY and, have given no indication that they are willing to honor the law of Utah, or their word to me.   Do business with them; don't do business with them. It's entirely up to you. I'm just giving you all a courtesy "heads-up" as to how I am treated and how others might be treated. Let me also add, they were very polite to me as well, when I first spoke with them, and I trusted them with my money. That's it in a nutshell.  Good luck!

chris magness

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2003, 06:24:23 PM »
When purchasing climbing gear, through any means, one must consider the inteded purpose and use of that gear.  Assumably it will leave the manufacturer in pristine condition, pass through a supplier and a retailer, and rest in the hands of a purchaser in the same pristine condition, where the purchaser will most likely use that gear in life threatening conditions.  Therefore, return of climbing gear after purchase to the retailer, where the gear may or may not have been subjected to use, will render the gear useless, as it's history is unknown.  

What Scott has not mentioned, is that he purchased the incorrect size boot -- despite warnings from Pagan that there would be no return if the boot size was incorrect -- received those boots and attempted to return them.

Scott, when you purchased exspensive boots at a generous discout from Pagan, you should have ordered the correct size.  Why would Pagan allow you to return boots they could no longer sell?  Brian Jonas is an honsest indivual, dedicated climber and friend to the climbing community.

You're website,, is libel.  I suggest you delete it before outside parties become involved.

Furthermore, store credit -- to a climbing shop -- if you are a climber (and Scott, you must be considering you ordered an Everest type boot) is far from useless.  Gear wears and periodically needs to be replaced.  What better than to purchase it from a small mom-and-pop type outfitter with excellent prices?  

Offline Walt

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2003, 06:46:31 PM »
HMMM, The plot thickens ???


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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2003, 07:20:03 PM »
I spent a spring in Moab and the people at Pagan are honest, friendly, and helpful.  No store allows climbing gear to be returned and you should consider yourself lucky with a store credit.  The website you designed is childish and vindictive.  Grow up and stop whinning about the boots.  

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2003, 08:14:54 PM »

To Chris Magness,

Your characterization is scewed toward a vain imagination.

Again, I never received the boots, period. Therefore, I could not return them, now could I?  Should I seek to spell that out for you in a language you are familiar with?

The size I ordered was correct; yet, of no importance or relevance in light of what I just stated. Incidently, there was no "warning" with regard to returns. In fact, when I asked about that possiblity, I was told that I would be required to pay return postage, and the correct size would be ordered & shipped. Standard business practice.

However, were I told, or were it stated on their web site that there are no returns for reasons of size, I would not have sent them my check.  Who would?  What kind of business operates like that?  Your false ascertion comes from Jonas' fog & evade tactics that are failing in light of common sense and the truthfulness of what I have already declared.

Further, prior to ordering them, I had opportunity to try a pair 12 1/2, they were just shy of the promised land. Having talked with several people about the sizing of these boots, I opted for the 13. Which, coincidently, is the same size of my other plastic boots.  

Chris, there is but one defense for an accusation of libel; the truth! I have no concerns. Take it or leave it.  

In my opinion, no lying thief is good for any community, that includes the climbing one. Chris, you believe what you want to believe, way down there; because up here it's just more of the same bull Jonas has been spewing at me.  Nonsense built upon more of the same.  

By the way, "store credit" would be a legitimate means toward settling a hypothetical such as you posted.  I'm all to happy to do business with "Mom & Pop", just not Bonnie and Clyde.

Hey you guys--this sort of debate is a waste of everyone's time.  Like I said, you can take what I said, or leave it. At this moment I don't really care. I just thought I was doing some honest minded folks a service.

Chris, as Jack Nicholson once said from a reversed position, "you can't handle the truth."  It's alright; they had me believing them too.

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2003, 08:37:50 PM »
Hey Stoked,

Did you say no store allows returns on gear?

Ever heard of EMS, REI, IME, just to name a few?  Check out their RETURN POLICYS sometime.  Then your big mouth will at least have the benefit of the intellect, should you choose to engage it.

Once again, I DID NOT EVER, EVER, EVER, RECEIVE/GET THE BOOTS. How the hell could I return something I never received?  Evidently you're capable of doing that.  I am not.

You guys are beautiful; when ya gonna learn to pay attention?  

Hey stoked, let go of yourself long enough to realize that SIX HUNDRED & SEVEN BUCKS; that's a 6 followed by a 07. 00, is not something anyone in their right mind is going to lightly dismiss or stop "whinning about."  Although, perhaps you would.


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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2003, 12:55:08 PM »
the last post was key.

Even if what they did was technically legal, I would like to see how some of you guys would react if you just lost 600 bucks. Let me tell you, I would be pretty pissed off too. As they say in Russia, you won't find it lying in the middle of the road.

Good luck to you, dude.

Offline om

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2003, 11:04:18 PM »
I was in a similar situation as Scott is... I've ordered climbing shoes, and didn't get them for couple months. I went on a roadtrip without them, called the store when got back. Turns out they didn't have my size and forgot all about the order(didn't forget to charge the credit card). When I finally got the shoes - they were too small. I've sent them back, asking for either bigger size or refund. Three month later I've got the pair I could wear. I consider the whole experience extremely unpleasant, but won't bash the store - their screw up was just an honest screw up, they didn't try to take my money...

For the guy who said climbing gear should never be returned, here is my opinion: boots aren't really climbing gear. If they didn't get used store can resell them. Besides, no store has every shoe of every size(they try to save money too!). In fact, I have not been to a single store that does have my size, at least in US. How do you think I feel about buying a climbing shoe without ever trying it? and without a possibility to return? I think it's bad enough that it takes me on average 4 months to get a pair...

Business is business; everyone should do what they promised.
Scott, thanks for the heads up.

Offline John Jackson

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2003, 12:41:55 AM »
So what is the current status?  Are they going to ship you the boots now, at least?  According to all the materials on your web pages about it, they should have the boots in their posession to ship to you now.  If they did that would that at least resolve your immediate concern of being out the $600?

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2003, 08:09:04 PM »
For OM & TOAD,

Colorful names you guys.

Let me first say, were it simply a matter of an "honest mistake" in my case, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The issue is as you said; "business is business, everyone should do as they PROMISED."  That's all I'm after; that's all I have a right to.

I'll tell ya, were it not for the lies, which quickly led me to believe these people were ripping me off, I would gladly have waited a little longer for the boots.  Repeated lying instills a distrust and a strong desire to get as far away from these people as possible--with my money back.

Unfortunately, I would need 5 more pages on my web site in order to show you all the e-mails these people sent me, demonstrating their lies.

I told these people the extent I was willing to go in order to retrieve my money and expose them. The law is my avenue of choice, and the web site is just helpful in demonstrating my willingness to keep my word.  

I've  told them I will not do business with them on any level and, that I will accept nothing less than a full refund. They will not make a pennies profit from me. I don't reward bad behavior--that's all.  The last communication from them was that the "check is in the mail."  

My heads-up warning of their practices will not end even with a full refund.  I don't want this to happen to someone else.

Offline John Jackson

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2003, 09:55:56 AM »

> Unfortunately, I would need 5 more pages on my web site in
> order to show you all the e-mails these people sent
> me,demonstrating their lies.

I'd go ahead and put all those in 5 more pages.  It couldn't be that hard and it would take up hardly any space as it's only text.  It would let people see even more for themselves what has transpired and let them make draw their own conclusion.

> I've  told them I will not do business with them on any level
> and, that I will accept nothing less than a full refund. They
> will not make a pennies profit from me.

I bet you'd get the boots much sooner than your money back.  But you probably know that and are choosing to fight for principle but also vindication as well.  It's just my opinion but I think you could accept the boots and be done but still share with others the simple details of your experience with this shop.  That seems like it would give others enough data to make an informed choice of where to buy things from.

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2003, 04:00:08 PM »

Have you a given name, or is toad it?

It's hard for me to answer people that are using ficticious names.

With regard to 5 more pages on my web site, I can't justify the added expense.  Like I've said once or twice previously, take what I've already declared and choose to believe it or not.  There is more than enough factual info to base some sort of decision on.  Besides, it can be claimed by anyone that e-mails are not legitimate due to the fact that they can be easily altered.

Toad, they don't have the boots to send. Never did!  

Yes, I've been known to stand on principle. It's a good place to stand, provided you're standing with the truth, which I am.  

If by "vindication" you mean the justification for a belief, then you would be right.  Therefore, the justification for standing on principle is simple; these people are lying thieves that have no right to my money; nor, do I have an obligation to do business with them.

If you and others want proof of my claims, then go to my web site--it's all there!  (That which can be legally proven, that is.)  It would not be any more the truth if it was brought before a Judge and declared to be such. This is the bottom line for me. The evidence is what it is. Therefore, believe what you want to believe.

The only thing I would like to add to all of this is that these people did what they did knowing that I lived more than 2000 miles away.  I'm almost certain that they would never attempt this sort of thing were I there in person. So, if you want to be safe, go to Moab, Utah and by your gear.  Think twice, if you plan on making a large purchase from out of state.  Make sense?