Author Topic: Heads-Up!  (Read 427 times)

Offline drb1215

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2003, 05:05:57 PM »
Scott,

All you are doing is asking for the customer support that any good / reliable shop should provide.  There is nothing vendictive about the path you are taking.  Unfortunatly there are shops out there that are trying to push quantity through the web vs. quality of service (there are a number of high quality shops that do sell through the web).  There are also those shops who are being squeezed by our economy and are having a hard time making payroll, paying bills, or issueing credits (and are too proud or embarassed to let you know the truth).
What ever the case with Pagan, good luck in your pursuit.

Dan Brown

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2003, 05:26:29 PM »
Dan,

Your points are reasonable and entirely possible.  They could have been caught-up in circumstances beyond their control and unwilling to share the truth of that with me, for reasons of pride.  

However, what does it say about these people when they continually manufacturer falsehoods that never mesh with one another, and never come to fruition?  Why would they choose to be obvious liars to a customer rather than just simply saying: we have a problem, can we ask for your understanding and patience?  And then give a truthful explanation of the problem?  

That is all it would have taken as far as I'm concerned.  


Offline toad

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2003, 01:12:42 AM »
Heya Scott:

    Sorry about the name - it's John Jackson.  But anyway - I was assuming they had the boots by now because their letter on 4/30 to the BBB said they were stuck in customs at that time but they expected them shortly.  Of course, if that was a lie then they were just making things worse.  If they did have them now but you still insisted on a refund instead I thought that would be sacrificing what was assumedly most important to you - getting the boots.  I could see it as vindictive too because you'd be making them cram the boots and having to wait for someone else to hopefully buy them so they could recover their cost on them.  I'm not saying I think they should be able to treat customers carelessly without any consequence.  I just suggested that by taking the boots (if they actually have them now) that I thought you could still alert others just as effectively of the problems you had and at the same time you'd have your boots too and be done with them.  I'm not against whatever you do.  I'd be upset too if it was my $600 in limbo because I trusted someone.  I hope it ends up working out for you as soon as possible :)

-John

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2003, 11:16:47 AM »
John,

As I've said, they never received the boots they claimed to have ordered. Like you, I too assumed that they were on the level with me.  

Let me say again, you are unfamiliar with all the facts and the numerous lies told me up to this point. It's tough for me to give the benefit of the doubt when lies and misinformation seem to be the norm for these people.

Let me share an example: The letter they sent to the BBB is dated the 30th of April. That's 12 days after the promised delivery date, not 10 days. According to the Pagan's, the boots had been in Canadian customs from the 16th of April until the 10th of May when I was later told they had been SENT to me.

Just a side note: What are the boots doing in Canada? The boots are manufactured in Italy, and I was told the boots were ordered directly from Millet, which is in France?

Now, I gave them a written request for a full refund on the 30th of April, which they dismissed; yet, knowing that they had 10 days from written request from which to give me a refund, there was no refund and, there are no boots.  What the hell happened to the boots that they claimed were sent on the 10th of May?  What the hell happened to the "check in the mail" that I was told was sent on the 7th of May?  

Answer me this, why would they tell me that both the boots & check have been sent?  Why tell me again on the 18th of May that the boots have been sent yet again?  Exactly how long should someone--in your opinion--wait for shipment of the boots or check from Moab, Utah before raising an eyebrow to question? Twenty days? Thirty days?

When I asked which carrier shipped the boots and what the tracking number was, they refused to answer me.  When I asked who their distributor was, they refused to answer.

When I learned through information gleened from the Internet, who their distributor in the U.S. was, I contacted them and requested info on my purchase. They new nothing of it; yet, according to the Pagan's, all shipments to their store go through their distributor.  Interesting huh?

Furthermore, the distributor also owns the name Pagan Mountaineering and have several stores such as Pagan Gear, Climb Axe and several others; there is also a new Pagan Mountaineering opening in Arizona.

Do you find a problem with any of this?  It appeared to me that they were toying with me and have been doing so since cashing my check.

Get this--when I contacted Millet by e-mail to inquire of my order through the Pagan's, and gave my invoice number, they had no record of any such order. And, when I asked them if a shipment of this nature was routed through Canada they said NO! They ship directly to the U.S.

John, having first hand experience with these people, and having done my home work, I have drawn my conclusions about them. I've just been sharing my conclusions here, that's all.

As far as what is "most important" to me, the boots or the money; it's a no brainer!  The money!  That can't be that hard to understand. First off, they do not deserve to make a profit from me due to their behavior. Secondly, I desire to buy the boots from a company that is honest.

Also, there is no cost for them to recover!  It would not be my problem if there were, they would have done it to themselves. If you consider my behavior as being vindictive/retaliatory then you've missed everything I've thus far clearly stated and are playing the role of judge without all the facts. Whatever.  

John, since when has it become a retaliatory offense to get a full refund? Since when has it become a retaliatory offense to warn others about their scheme? Why do you think there is a BBB and a Consumer Protection Agency?  I guess, maybe, I don't understand the reasoning in your wanting me to buy the boots from these people and also warn others while calling me vindictive?

John, were you to unknowingly be a couple of steps from falling into a man-hole, I would shout to warn you, despite what anyone might say. That's just who I am. That's all this exercise has been.  

Thanks for the wish that things will work out.
Scott



Offline rmb

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2003, 10:10:02 PM »
Have your "Lawyer" draw up a letter clearly stating your case and your desire for a full, real money, refund. Explain the next step is into court, where you will win, which is pretty clear.

Get as many employee addresses and names from Pagan that you can find. Mail and e-mail this letter to every single person you can.

I've had to do this a couple times and it's always worked. Just got to find the right person at these companies filled mostly with a-holes sometimes....

Forget about the boots, get your money.

-RMB

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2003, 08:44:16 AM »
RMB,

Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom in dealing with such matters.

The tough part is finding a consumer protection lawyer in the Moab area.  They seem to be very busy.

Everyone in Moab, that is the Police, Clerk of Court, BBB, Moab Travel Council, Consumer Protection, etc., have told me that it is a question of when I get my money back, not if.

The pagan's stand to lose a great deal. The owner of the company will have to pay court fees, filing fees, lawyer fees, punitive damages, and worst of all, he will have a permanent black mark attached to his credit report.

These people are looking to push this matter and then fold at the last second before going to court. They just want to make trouble for me.

Thanks,
Scott

Offline toad

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2003, 10:42:46 PM »
> As far as what is "most important" to me, the boots or the
> money; it's a no brainer!  The money!  That can't be that
> hard to understand. First off, they do not deserve to make
> a profit from me due to their behavior.

That's what I'm calling the vindictive attitude. You may as well have said "I'll be damned if I'm going to accept those boots from them now, no matter what!  I'll settle for nothing except my money back!"

Please don't mistake me - I'm not saying I think you're the slightest bit wrong for being extremely pissed off.  It sounds like they're jerking you around as much as they can. As long as they have either a pair of boots or your money in their hands, they have the upper hand. Once you get either out of them they no longer will.

> John, since when has it become a retaliatory offense to get
> a full refund?

Making them give you a refund can be construed as retaliatory in that in a 'normal' situation where a vendor legitimately special orders something for you, they usually have to assume the burden of the cost of the item if you later decide you don't want it.  At least until they can find someone else to sell the item to.  That's usually why a lot of vendors require full payment up front for something they have to special order.  That's why I think you'd have had a better chance of getting boots out of them at some point than a refund.  But like you said, if there never were any boots and these people started out with the intention of defrauding someone 2,000 miles away, then my take on how things work with legitimate business practice would be irrelevant here.

> I guess, maybe, I don't understand the reasoning in your
> wanting me to buy the boots from these people...

It's not that I want you to buy the boots from these people.  I don't care who you buy them from :)  All I meant is that if there had been any real chance at some point that you could have gotten the boots but you still insisted on a refund instead, don't be suprised if that choice resulted in them making it even more difficult for you.

> ...and also warn others

You'd be just as effective at that at this point no matter what happened with boots and money, etc.

But again, I agree that if there were never any boots at their end and there were never going to be, then what I'm talking about is not relevant.

> John, were you to unknowingly be a couple of steps from
> falling into a man-hole, I would shout to warn you, despite
> what anyone might say. That's just who I am.

Me too.

Scott Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2003, 08:06:00 PM »
John,

I hesitate to respond to your last post for the simple reason that I don't want to get bogged down in a quibble over what is, or is not, a "vindictive attitude".

Some of us choose to believe that availing ourselves of existing legal remedies in such matters is a safe and mature approach. However, you are certainly free to differ and be wrong. :)

The problem with your judgement of "vindictive" is that it assumes two things are true, that are not. The first assumption is that you have the super human ability to peering into my heart and discern without error that my motivation for wanting my money back is purely "vindictive", and not simply a matter of a legal right and wrong. And secondly, that you have the authority from God to mete-out some form of judgement upon me.  

Let us end this. What is "pissing me off", John, is people telling me why I am doing what I am doing. The only one left alive in a position of scolding me is my Father.  :)

Moving on, you said that my "making them give me a refund could be construed as retaliatory".  That could only be true if the consumer protection laws were in their favor. They are not!  Besides, how would it be possible to "MAKE THEM give me a refund" if the laws were in their favor?  It would, I suspect, be a foggy day in Hell before I could make them even fart in our general direction apart from the law.  ;)  

You did note that this last point, and the remaining one are irrelevent.  I sure do appreciate your interest and eagerness to discern the bottom line in all of this. It's good to be examined and to be free to make a case.

Thanks John,
Scott Mac

Whoa

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2003, 09:11:18 AM »
What a soap opera! I haven't heard this much passion in awhile. Very entertaining! Scott, what do you do for work? You have an awful lot of time to be typing, man! And, damn, you've got big feet! Keep it coming, I can't wait to find out what happens next...

Offline haircity

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2003, 10:14:46 AM »
The same effort writing for $$s would put him in enough jack to buy boots, crampons and new tools.

;D

Offline Scott_Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2003, 05:03:04 PM »
Whoa,

I'm all too glad to be of some entertainment value.

It's been fun for me too.  It seems to just roll off the key board in no time at all.

Indeed, I do have big feet.  And that ain't all  ;D

Stay tuned  :D

Offline Scott_Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2003, 05:10:07 PM »
Haircity,

I guess the point of your post is for me to thank the thieves at pagan mountaineering for stealing my money, and then encourage climbers to send them their hard earned money as well.  

Are you blonde by any chance?

;D

Offline fcm

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2003, 01:05:25 PM »
I did a little cuttin' and pastin' and found out that Scottie has written 4383 words so far on this matter. At least that's how much I could find.  

Bored. Guilty as charged.
.

Offline Scott_Mac

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Re: Heads-Up!
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2003, 04:08:27 PM »
fcm,

Impressive!  My first thought after reading your post was of Rain Man  ;)  I'll bet your an excellent driver as well  ;D

"Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind." Kipling

I trust you are sufficiently intoxicated.  

What's the total now?
What the hell is limit?