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Author Topic: Some Gear Questions  (Read 401 times)

juanpaab

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Some Gear Questions
« on: May 04, 2007, 09:19:13 PM »

First things first.  ATC Guide or the Reverso, ive heard good stuff about both and some not so good things about both just looking for some opinions.

Secondly, i was in IME the other day and there were numerous cams and nuts in the "bargin bin"  what are peoples take on these things.  I know most people say dont use gear that you dont know, but it must sell cuz everytime im in there its different stuff.

Just some questions.

JG
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bluesnpolitics

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 09:48:12 PM »

I have a reverso. it is lighter, but both ATC guide and reverso are perfectly fine. My understanding is that the ATCG is a little bit more user friendly. You will be happy with either one.
I don't know exactly how the IME "bargin bin" works, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut... but... if it is just items that IME isn't going to carry anymore, by all means take the deal. If it is USED stuff, then be wary of anything that is soft. Don't buy ropes, slings, draws, etc. If the cam is slung (which I think all cams are now), resling them. I am of the opinion that a well inspected piece of used hardware is okay to use, but that is just my opinion. That being said, I don't own anything used.
DrewD
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barryj

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 10:38:10 PM »


Reverso or ATC guide?
Well, I say it all depends on intended purpose.

I have the Reverso and Reversino....there great for the guide or lead climber on multi pitch.  Not the right tool for top roping.

Do you need an auto locking belay device? if so you need to know how to release it when loaded.

Where and how do you plan on using
your new toy is the question?

Barry Jones
Climb On, Inc.
climboninc.com
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DLottmann

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 08:18:04 PM »

I switched to at ATC-Guide after wearing sharp edges on 3 Reversos.  The wear comes mainly from rapping in normal friction mode.  The edge in question is sometimes used as a "high friction" mode for rappelling/belaying, but the high friction mode of the ATC-Guide is MUCH more rope friendly.  I think the Guide is better, and is set up to make releasing them while in the auto-block mode as little easier.  As Barry mentioned, familiarity with creating a quick block and tackle and re-directing the brake strand so you can lower is important.
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old_school

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2007, 09:29:13 PM »

I second DMan's Post. The Reverso is a great tool, but the ATC Guide is that mch better for all the reasons listed!
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

barryj

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 07:35:26 AM »


Well, I might be old school and maybe I should streamline, but I never rappel with my reverso, for the above mentioned reasons and more. 

I always have a pear biner with an ATC attached to it on my belay loop plus another ATC on a locker I possibly have to give to the (new to climbing) client to use.

Additionaly I almost always lead with my pack on, which has another ATC attached to it along with all the rest of the rescue gear...pulley, tibloc, two cordaletts, two prussiks and a ropeman, and let's not forget the first aid kit in the pack. 

I think I got off topic, but my point is the same....there may be the desire to find the one "does everything tool" but if you drop that tool or need to have the client/student use it you got to have a user friendly back up anyway.  So use what works best IYHO for that situation.

Conidering Dmans and Old Schools testimonals I'll try an ATC guide this season....who knows, maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks!

Barryj


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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 07:46:15 AM »

Funny, I have lent my spare rap device out to strangers more times than i have used it myself. One time this guy was trying to make a biner brake out of shiny new biners at the start of a 2 pitch ice climb. He intended on lead belaying with it?? I tossed him my spare ATC and felt at least marginaly safer that my day was not going to turn into a rescue ;)
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DLottmann

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 07:59:15 AM »

I have a handful of ATC's to give to clients, but I don't bring "spare" belay devices when climbing.  ATC-Guide for belaying leaders, seconds on sub-9.4 ropes.  Cinch for easy belaying of seconds on 9.4 and up.  Munter hitch is the lighest back-up belay device if you happen to drop your ATC, which should hopefully be VERY rare.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 08:42:41 AM »

I have used the munter a bit but it does twist the rope. also not enough brakeing power for  ideal lead belaying INMOP I read a horror story about a munter where the rope unscrewed the locking biner and hopped right out of the biner durring a rap. Guy was on El cap anmd was tied into the end of his fixed line so he took the big bungi jump!!!  I played with the rope a bit after that and found that it is a good idea to have the gate pointing the right way when rapping with a munter!!
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old_school

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 09:37:18 AM »

I played with the rope a bit after that and found that it is a good idea to have the gate pointing the right way when rapping with a munter!!

I have heard some stories like that too Nick. Load needs to be against the spine of the biner and not the gate for just that reason. Though it does twist the rope up, it twists less if you feed the rope through, vs pulling it through. I like the Munter, though I have used it less with the new Guide ATC...but occassionally, I will belay my second up with it as it is quick and easy to construct and take down  ;)
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

Jeff

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 09:45:05 AM »

When I was the AAC delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission through the 80's and 90's the main European argument FOR the use of the Munter for ALL belaying was that it gave a higher braking force that any of the plate or tube style devices. The recommendation was also to use it directly off the belay anchors (which the Europeans assumed would be solid bolts). The Brits and I argued for more flexibility, given that we were in the habit of belaying off leader placed removable anchors, often incorporating the belayer's body in the system as a further shock absorber. I don't intend to open a whole belaying thread here, but just to point out that test results showed that the Munter had plenty of braking force for lead or second falls. In fact one of our objections to its exclusive use was the glazing of the rope's sheath due to the high friction during the test falls. I was witness to many such tests equivalent to UIAA test falls at the Italian Alpine club's test tower in Padua. They were impressive, but I didn't like the resulting rope damage personally. Each of us climbing has to choose  which options to take and risks to accept, preferably based on something other than hearsay. At present, I use the ATC Guide most, as I climb mostly with double ropes. The Grigri for guiding on single ropes and the Reverso for doubles are also in my arsenal ( I too have worn out and retired Reversos-- retiring equipment is not always a bad thing). Just my 2 cents.  Jeff Lea
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 09:57:19 AM »

That is interesting about the braking power? It feels ok to me but not great especialy when compared to Trango jaws or XTP which is what I normaly use. I am just baseing this on how it feels when I rap or lower someone. Feels like i really have to hang on with the munter. XTP and jaws just lock right up nice and snug feeling to me. Ropes are skinnier these days as well... Definatly have the Munter in the quiver so to speak but much rather use a Jaws or XTP.
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old_school

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 10:31:55 AM »

the load needs to be against the spine of the biner and not the gate for just that reason.

You know...I spat this out very "matter-of-factly", but I found this on the following website!

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/MunterHitch.htm

they have the picture as I had mentioned, but have a noted retraction that the load should be on the gate side, and the brake should be against the spine  ??? hhmmmm......
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

tradmanclimbz

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 10:34:43 AM »

Brake needs to be against the spine. I replicated the accident with the brake against the gate.
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barryj

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Re: Some Gear Questions
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 11:10:15 AM »


There is also the Super Munter...it has an additional loop in it.  There is so much friction that you could lower a SUV off the cliff with just your forefinger and thumb!
Doesn't knot up the rope any more than regular Munter...(which is bad enough IMO) 

I've used it more than once...most recently to lower two large clients, simal  (inverted cordalette) when we were 3/4  up Willeys, used  two ropes tied with an end to end Butterfly knot with 8 inch tails (same purpose as EDK but differant and safer IMO)   fed the knotpass  thru pear biner, no prob and got them all the way to the base in one shot from the anchor. 

Great trick to have up your sleeve.

Barryj
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