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Author Topic: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?  (Read 847 times)

JakeDatc

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Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« on: May 12, 2007, 10:52:32 PM »

I was there last weekend and the 2 fixed draws were not there.. They were pretty useful for folks either working it in the rain,  working it but not being able to top out, cleaning afterwards..

anyone know why they were taken down? or if perhaps someone was going to replace them with newer stuff?

jake
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blake

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 07:18:56 AM »

i imagine because they looked like they wouldnt hold one more fall.  the last time i was on that route i swore i wouldnt fall on either of those draws.  i even thought of buying 2 cheap draws and replacing myself.  that red one was DONE...the material was like a quarter eaten through. 


it's probably a good thing they're gone, better to put your own draw up than to fall on those things.  hopefully whoever took them down replaces them.
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JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 10:14:30 AM »

yea.. they had been up for a while.. so i can understand replacing them.. it was the taking them down and leaving it empty that wasn't so good.   someone i talked to mentioned they were great for being able to work the bottom in the rain and be able to bail from there

i have a few extra slings.. i don't have any biners that aren't being used though
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ToddSH

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2007, 07:46:42 AM »

The draws were removed.  The beaners had close to 50% wear. I hope the climb stays like this.  There is no need for fixed draws on this route. If you want fixed draws go to another cliff where there fixed all over the place. I say BS to people who want to work it in the rain. The climb is easier to clean from the anchors rather than the last bolt. I would much rather be lowered on a double bolt anchor that some worn out tat on one bolt. :There are alot of people that climb at runmey that don't enjoy fixed draws.
I have a feeling if a draw gets fixed it will be removed. Todd
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blake

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 09:11:13 AM »

yeah, i really didnt understand the top 2 fixed draws....i mean now it's more incentive for people to do the mantle and not bail. 
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Dave

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 09:41:37 AM »

Leave the draws off! If you bail and don't do the mantle and go to the anchors IMNSHO you can't claim to have done the route. Dave
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JBeta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 06:57:55 PM »

There has been a recent problem at Rumney with draws disappearing from routes. In two cases (on Social and on Flesh for Lulu) climbers were working the route on a Saturday and decided to leave the draws on the route for A DAY in order to try and send on Sunday. In both cases, the draws were found either all clipped to the first bolt (Social) or in the possession of people hanging out at the base (Flesh).

It seems to me that this is a case of a small group of people trying to articulate a stance on fixed draws. This stance is not shared by the majority of the Rumney community. To me, the kind of self-important, passive-aggressive motivation that these people are using does disservice to the entire community.

We all know how to tell the difference between fixed draws and draws that are left there because someone is working the route. Sketchy fixed draws should be replaced. Draws that have been left because someone is projecting should be respected. A small group of people should not try to force their ethics on others without dialogue and consensus.

I don't need draws fixed on Social for me to do the route; however, I respect those who are working the route and those who appreciate the fixed draws.   

Jay
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:43:30 PM by JBeta »
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Kayte

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 07:20:50 PM »

The people who removed the draws from Flesh said that they wanted a "true redpoint" of the route.  To them, sending the route on fixed draws would have somehow lessened the accomplishment.  I respect their desire to do this, however, I believe that if you take someone's draws down you have a responsibility to put them back up again.  Leaving them clipped to the first draw, or at the base, is simply inviting the theft of these draws. 

You never know why a climber has chosen to fix draws on the route, but you can be certain that they do have a reason.  Often, this is a shorter climber who can not safely hang a draw, or has a really difficult time hanging the draw, although the route is within his or her abilities.  Being 5 foot 2 myself, I run into this problem a lot.  Yes, it does make me stronger to push myself to hang these draws...but that should be my decision.

If you do not trust the condition of the fixed draws, you can clip your own draws beneath the fixed draw (the hangers are large enough), or replace the draws. This way, you will not force your opinion about fixed draws on someone else.
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lefty

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 09:40:47 PM »

i don't really care, but flesh for lulu is not a project, its an established route open for anyone to climb

if they left gear on it and then left - that's their problem

a real climber would'nt want fixed draws on all the pro anyway, gezz - might as well just top rope it

what would that be? - a maroon point or fuschia point






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rose

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 11:29:23 PM »

hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone. 

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.










« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 11:32:05 PM by rose »
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M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 11:54:08 PM »

i don't really care, but flesh for lulu is not a project, its an established route open for anyone to climb

if they left gear on it and then left - that's their problem

Leaving draws on a sport route does not give someone the right to steal them. (Not saying these people were necessarily doing that). If they are removed and in good shape, a reasonable attempt should be made to return them to their owners with a note on the kiosk, dropping them off at the Rock Barn etc. As far as putting them back on the route, that depends. I most likely would unless I was in a bad mood, in which case I might leave them clipped to the first bolt

Personally I am mixed on fixed draws at Rumney. Sometimes they are very handy, but they can get a bit out of hand, both from an aesthetic point of view and safetywise. I would like to see less of them and some attempt to use ones that blend in with the rock more. They make sense on bolts that for whatever reason had to be placed in a spot that is hard to clip or is very hard to clean, but do they have to be on every bolt. A 5.8 is a project for some climbers.

People should remove old worn out draws when they see them, even if they can't replace them. It is better to have nothing there than something that endangers others IMO.

One thing that has started to concern me: Many of the bolts at Rumney are glue-in eyebolts. They are very strong, don't loosen up with use and allow people to escape without leaving bail biners. When placed well they also blend in better then bolts with regular hangers (a fact that is negated by fixed draws!). In short, they work great. They must, however be cared for as they can't be easily replaced. Many people have taken to using steel quicklinks as the top biner on a fixed draw. What do you think constant swinging in the breeze and steel on steel is going to do to these bolts and the galvanized finish on them? At least the aluminum of regular biners is softer.

PS-
a real climber would'nt want fixed draws on all the pro anyway, gezz -
Haha.. I don't know that you should be inferring that Kayte is not a "real" climber. There is a good chance that she could climb rings around you and I know she is dedicated. I'll take that as a joke
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M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2007, 12:04:49 AM »





 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.

Nice points, Rose
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JBeta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2007, 07:15:18 AM »

hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone.

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.


Very well said Rose.
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Dave

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2007, 07:47:36 AM »

Draws that are on a route because someone is working it should be left and then when they are done they should remove them imo. For another climber to take them is stealing. Marks comments about safety and old draws are something people should listen to though. Last year I removed draws from heaven at monsters that were old, faded, and the biners would not even close. I left them at the base and the next weekend the same ones were back up! At that point they were removed and destroyed for safety reasons. They were so bad that if you were dumb enough to clip them you probably deserve whatever would happen in the event of a fall. I have broken a fixed draw at rumney before that didn't even look that bad! I do not feel that I had a responsibility to replace them. Leaving draws when working a route I think is fine but imo I think permanently fixed draws at Rumney have gotten way out of control. Dave

If you have a stick clip you can hang every draw on just about any route at Rumney for the purpose of working it if you want. In almost every case permanently fixed draws are not needed imo.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 07:57:32 AM by Dave »
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blake

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2007, 08:12:02 AM »

ROSE!

i just got a bunch of new draws....let's go leave them on a route.



and if you walk into a locker room and see someone's shoes underneath a bench, do you assume they are there for you to take?  NO.  why?  because it's not yours and obviously they left them there.  same goes for a draw....youre not the almight climbing dictator who gets to decide what stays and goes. enough of this self serving entitlement that i see going on lately with climbers.  our sport and community are built on trust and respect.....since when does the line end at other peoples property?  you respect a persons house, their yard, so why not a fellow climbers $80 set of quick draws.  we're not millionaires here.....that's a lot of money.  (im obviously not referring to ratty old fixed draws like on Orangahang, which i think also need to go)








hey LEFTY-

Your point is fragile, limited, and reflects upon your amateurish ethics. A real climber wouldn't be knocking others down.

YES: The draws were hung on a route that is normally free of draws. Obviously this person was returning to it, and left the option for others to utilize the draws.  If you took them down, you were obligated to hang them back up.  Basically, if it is not yours leave it alone.

 If something concerns you, discuss it in a forum before you decide to make decisions for the whole community.

We should be supportive in this small community of ours, not discouraging.











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