Author Topic: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?  (Read 1271 times)

Offline Kayte

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2007, 08:18:24 AM »
Thanks Mark.  That means a lot.

I think there are two points open for discussion here.

1) fixed draws...left up indefinitely because these routes are steep and overhanging, and therefore hard to clean on lower or on toprope.

2) project draws...left up for a weekend or a couple weeks, because someone had a really hard time getting the draws up, and wants to try to send the route the next day.

I think Mark was talking about fixed draws, and I can understand his point, although I take full advantage of the fixin's :)  What could be done to make these draws blend in a bit more?  For example, if the draws are dark gray does that make them a little more low profile?

I didn't know that about quick links.  I couldn't agree more about glue ins.

I also think we have to do something about the manky draws that have been dangling in the snow and sun for years and years with no attention.  I recently changed out the webbing on Suburban, but that leaves 20 other routes with bleached draws.

The draws on Social and lulu were project draws.  By project, I mean a personal project, not a new line.  If someone has left their draws up, they are saying, "go ahead and have a go on my draws."  They are trusting you not to steal them until they get back and send their project.  The people who left draws on social and lulu weren't trying to fix the route.  they just wanted another burn the next day. I don't see the problem with this.

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 09:30:58 AM »
leaveing draws on rts that are not severly overhanging or rts that are relativly easy and then crying about them being removed is  lame.  Heck 10d is a project for me, should I go hang draws on my projects for a few days? Flesh is a warmup climb for a huge segment of the  rumny climber group so it is no supprise that the draws got yanked..

Offline frik

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 09:34:27 AM »
Draws? Wherabouts exactly are these?

Offline JBeta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2007, 09:38:25 AM »
Tradman,

Flesh is a warmup for me; however, I would never remove draws from the route. Yanking draws is stealing.

Don't think that the "ethics" that apply at Cathedral can also be applied at Rumney. Sure, I wouldn't expect my my gear to stay on a route such as Airation or Camber, but I do expect my draws to stay on the routes I am working at Rumney. Since I expect draws on my routes, then it is only fair that others can expect the same.

You seem to be championing an elitist attitude regading fixing draws on routes of "lesser" grades. If you want to leave your draws on your 10d project for a while, then I'm fine with that.

Jay

 

lefty

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 09:54:42 AM »
YIKES!!

in an attempt to make a feeble response

Rose: Odd, i thought I was discussing it? Did I say I took them?

for the rest:

How would it be obviuos someone is returning simply because there is gear on a route (btw - I know the difference between a route in the guidebook and a "project")?

Must have missed that fine point in my 16 years of climbing.

Didn't know Rumney spurt climbers had a secret climber code.
=you guys should leave a note at the base of a climb saying "don't remove my draws please" for us unethical self-centered azzhole types

poor me, guess i had better just shuffle my old tired arze on over to cannon where I belong so i don't interfere with your "projects"


Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2007, 10:04:14 AM »
There is an elitist code for climbers ;) allways has been.  Tatics that would get you laughed off  a 5.9 are standard procedure for a 5.14  Seriously, I can't imagin me leaveing draws on a climb that gets hiked 20 times a day.. Where is that blushing gremlin...

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 10:28:56 AM »
There is a bit of a difference in ethic relating to gear on sport vs. traditional areas. I don't think the old idea of booty always fits in the sport climbing world. The idea of booty makes sense when you are talking about traditional routes to me, though out of courtesy I think it is nice to try to find the original owner, especially for some expensive cam left by accident or under duress. Sport climbing is quite different. Aside from the occasional bail biner booty I don't think left gear is for the taking. Some argument could be made for removal IMO, but I think courtesy should prevail.

As far as leaving draws on a personal project that gets a lot of use, well I wouldn't do it, though if one was leaving late in the day and returning early in the morning I see no problem.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

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Offline Kayte

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 10:44:29 AM »
Lefty,

I'll try to answer your question.  This wasn't a situation with one piece of gear, from which a climber bailed.  When you bail, you clean all of the pieces underneath you as you lower, right?  

Well in the case of Flesh and Social, there were draws on every bolt, because someone was working the route on Saturday, and wanted to get back on it Sunday morning.

If you see a draw on every bolt, those draws have been left up on purpose, because the climber who owns the draws will come back later and try to redpoint the route.  If you see one draw or one biner, than the climber bailed and you are justified in taking your booty, although the owner of the gear is probably still in the parking lot if you want to return it.

Does that make sense?

Offline Kayte

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 10:55:23 AM »
There is an elitist code for climbers ;) Seriously, I can't imagin me leaveing draws on a climb that gets hiked 20 times a day.. Where is that blushing gremlin...

Nick, that's a fine opinion.  No one feels great  :-[ about leaving draws on a route that gets hikes 20 times a day.  I think the point is -- like it or not that the draws are there -- you should not take them down and leave them at the base or steal them.  As a climbing community, we should respect ethical differences or deal with them via forums.  Taking people's draws simply isn't right, and is a piss poor way to make an ethical point.

Offline JBeta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2007, 01:27:54 PM »
YIKES!!

in an attempt to make a feeble response

Rose: Odd, i thought I was discussing it? Did I say I took them?

for the rest:

How would it be obviuos someone is returning simply because there is gear on a route (btw - I know the difference between a route in the guidebook and a "project")?

Must have missed that fine point in my 16 years of climbing.

Didn't know Rumney spurt climbers had a secret climber code.
=you guys should leave a note at the base of a climb saying "don't remove my draws please" for us unethical self-centered azzhole types

poor me, guess i had better just shuffle my old tired arze on over to cannon where I belong so i don't interfere with your "projects"



Lefty,

I'll tell you what I've learned from my 14 years of climbing. Among other things, I've learned that nothing good can come out of insulting a large group of climbers. We "spurt climbers" are good people who enjoy climbing just as much as you do. We might even trad climb a bit. I know this might be shocking to hear, but yes, some "spurt climbers" are in fact bad-ass trad climbers.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 01:48:51 PM by JBeta »

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 03:13:35 PM »
Such narrow minded people..  these are probably the same people that freaked out when all those pins got pulled off cathedral.   For having such strong feelings about ethics, trad climbers are pretty quick to ignore those of other types of climbing..

as for the top of SO i can understand the need to get rid of the old ones.. and can accept them not returning.. they were useful but not necessary so

Trad.. ive seen this same attitude from you on many boards and it's amazing you still climb at rumney.. it seems like it just causes you a major amount of pain 
Flesh is a very popular .12 project..  the top part seems to require a bunch of time to work out the sequence.  Generally there are never project draws on it.. in this case the person was coming back the next day.. jeebus give them some time to come back to get them.   I agree with mark.. if you want to take them down then put them back after.. it's not that hard.
"Just fix the darn thing! Says right in my Ed Webster guide book that there is a 2 bolt anchor up there. If some idiot chopps it have the fool see a shrink . Then fix it again.." -trad  hmm not so fun when people fuck with areas you like more eh?
"We did the dike today and our car was broken into in the parking lot" -trad   vs
"leaveing draws on rts that are not severly overhanging or rts that are relativly easy and then crying about them being removed is  lame."   -trad       maybe leaving valuables in a car left unattended and crying about it is lame

Lefty.. if you saw a whole trad route plugged with gear  would you jack the whole thing and happily add it to your rack?  i should hope not..   A single piece or couple pieces in one spot would relay the idea someone bailed or got it stuck..  a whole route means either an accident happened or they had to jet out of there in a major hurry for some reason.    On a sport route if you see one draw or biner.. someone probably bailed..   a whole line means someone is working the route and will be coming back to it.    You'd think in 16 years you would have figured out that bit of common sense.. i've only been at it for 6-8 years and i picked up on it pretty damn quickly.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 03:27:39 PM by JakeDatc »
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Offline Groovyclimber

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2007, 03:57:07 PM »


Flesh is a very popular .12 project..  the top part seems to require a bunch of time to work out the sequence.  Generally there are never project draws on it.. in this case the person was coming back the next day.. jeebus give them some time to come back to get them.   I agree with mark.. if you want to take them down then put them back after.. it's not that hard.

Forgive me for mentioning this as I'm only climbing 10s these days but why not clean your route Saturday and put them back up on Sunday?  I understand it is a project but I personally would not leave my gear hanging anywhere...  Rumney ethics aside...  especially if the route sees traffic.  Can someone rap the route and rehang them, another person leads out first to set the line, or red point it fresh and clip your own.

As you mentioned, if you can take them down, it's not that hard to put them back up.  Why does that not apply to the original party? 
 
To play Devils advocate....  if I was going to lead any of these routes and I found gear on them, why should I be forced to deal with it (just because it makes it more simple for the previous party to come back the next day)?  Where is the ethics for the other 20 people that might come along to do the route?   


Offline OldEric

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 04:21:40 PM »

To play Devils advocate....  if I was going to lead any of these routes and I found gear on them, why should I be forced to deal with it (just because it makes it more simple for the previous party to come back the next day)?  Where is the ethics for the other 20 people that might come along to do the route?   

Got to agree a bit with Groovy the Devil here.  Some of us (dinosaurs) still distinguish between redpoints and pinkpoints.  It may not be that easy (or safe) to clip a second draw into any particular bolt.  Why should I be denied my opportunity to try for a redpoint in the style that I aspire too (hanging my own draws while leading) for your own convenience?  Flesh happens to be one of the harder things I ever led.  It took some work.  When I finally succeeded it was a pink point (Zeb put up the draws for me on one of his warmups).  I still aspire to go back and do it better (hanging my own draws) - probably won't happen but I would conside it an improvement.

Earlier somewone made the analogy that a pair of sneakers under a bench in a locker room wouldn't be considered up for grabs.  What if those sneakers were on a bench you wanted to use in the weight room and no one was around?  Wouldn't you move them to the floor?

In summary I think project draws ought to be left up for as short a time as possible.  The harder the route the more likely it will be known whose they are and the fewer people will be impacted by it.  But on moderate (the definition of moderate ought to generate several pages of discussion) trade (not trad) routes I'd be against leaving project draws up over night unless you are quite sure you'll be there early the next day.

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 04:47:48 PM »
Groovy.. the draws were probably put up by someone other than the person going for the REDpoint  either doing the route or going bolt to bolt in some way or another.  for someone to put them back is only a matter of hooking the draws onto the end of the rope.. pulling them up.. then attaching them on the way back down as you lower.  I do not think any other routes go to the top where Flesh ends  to say go up an easier route and lower down Flesh

I do think the hung draws situation at waimea is a bit nuts...though i don't climb there very often so i don't know who is actually working what or if things are just hanging around.  On the other hand the only people going to waimea are climbers intending to do one of those routes.. which tend to be done with pre hung draws.  But you will notice that the lower draws that can be stick clipped from the ground are removed unless they are being worked (generally it seems.. there maybe exceptions)

Eric.. i'd move the shoes to the floor.. use the bench.. put them back where i found them afterwards.

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Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 05:26:04 PM »
I'd squeeze toothpaste into the toes and leave them where they are, then go use another bench within view.  ;D
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