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Author Topic: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?  (Read 714 times)

juanpaab

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 05:40:12 PM »

This may be just me but i was always taught to pick up my messes.  If it was that easy for them to hang the draws before they started to project it, then they can just as easily take them down at the end of the day.  I understand the idea of projecting and the ease of learning to climb a route with prehung draws but if you got them up there take them down, becuase you may not be the next one to climb the route.  Expecially at a place like rummney where you never know who may be the next party,  you could get a group of noobs who think they are booty, or a group of elitists that want to impose there own views by stealing YOUR draws.

As for the fixed draws i would always be weary of the strength of the webbing and would prefer to place my own.  I also think they are an eye sore, Im not against bolts becuase they open up new crazy hard lines that sometimes are never even thought about, but id rather climb a line clean with my own gear ground up.

Joe
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blake

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2007, 05:58:32 PM »

This may be just me but i was always taught to pick up my messes.  If it was that easy for them to hang the draws before they started to project it, then they can just as easily take them down at the end of the day.  I understand the idea of projecting and the ease of learning to climb a route with prehung draws but if you got them up there take them down, becuase you may not be the next one to climb the route.  Expecially at a place like rummney where you never know who may be the next party,  you could get a group of noobs who think they are booty, or a group of elitists that want to impose there own views by stealing YOUR draws.

As for the fixed draws i would always be weary of the strength of the webbing and would prefer to place my own.  I also think they are an eye sore, Im not against bolts becuase they open up new crazy hard lines that sometimes are never even thought about, but id rather climb a line clean with my own gear ground up.

Joe




maybe it wasnt that easy for them to hang the draws.
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juanpaab

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2007, 06:10:50 PM »

I wasnt there but it sounds as if the second party easily removed the draws before they climbed the route.  I say this becuase the draws were left hanging off of the first bolt, so it sounds as if the route was easily rap cleaned.
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JBeta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2007, 06:19:31 PM »

This distinction between redpointing and pinkpointing is nonsense in regard to sport routes.

Think of a famous sport route. Livin Astro, To Bolt or Not to Be, Dream Catcher, Realization, Predator, Urban Surfer, China Beach, BOHICA, La Rambla, Coral Sea, Just Do It, Parallel Universe, Beat Junkie, Jaws...the list goes on.

All of these routes were led with draws already prehung. To my knowledge, none of these routes has ever seen what some would call a "true redpoint." Are the thousands of ascents that these routes (and others) have seen somewhow less valid? Absolutely not.

This red/pink distinction applies more directly to trad climbs where gear (not draws, but gear--cams, nuts, etc) is involved. Even that distinction is fading somewhat, but it is much more relevant in the trad arena. In the sport arena no one I know makes this distinction.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2007, 06:28:57 PM »

Jake. I am not bashing Rumny. I think the place is GREAT! and a model for how a sport area should be managed. I would never steal draws there. The draws in question wrere not stolen, just yanked so that the next party could use their own draws. I doubt that would happen on a harder rt. As for Elitist attitude being part of the sport, I was just stateing a fact.  Rock climbing is an elitist sport and the best climbers get to define how the game is played... I Neither approve nor disaprove of this system I am just pointing out that it exists. Cheers 8)
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juanpaab

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2007, 06:31:22 PM »

Pink point is certainly the new Red point.  Its how you decide to climb the route, pink point, true red point, onsite, trad, sport, and if you can live with the way you climbed it thats cool.  I just dont think you should leave your draws up overnight expecially if you may not be the next to climb said route, as is the case in Rummney.  No gripes with pink pointing becuase ive done it but i took my draws down after every day on the route.

Joe
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JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2007, 07:21:51 PM »

I wasnt there but it sounds as if the second party easily removed the draws before they climbed the route.  I say this becuase the draws were left hanging off of the first bolt, so it sounds as if the route was easily rap cleaned.

I wasn't there either and i don't know how they would rap clean it..   I do not know of any other routes that go that high on that part of the wall.  So they would have had to climb up somewhere and walk around..  Flesh is overhanging at the top so the rap line would hang away from the wall quite a bit and it would not be an easy thing.  My guess is someone did it on the project draws, removed them.. then the other people did it on their own draws.

Joe.. where do you normally climb?  Because it does not sound like you frequent rumney very often.
http://www.mountainproject.com/images/78/43/105867843_large_7a3aed.jpg   yep.. looks like total shit.. damn those draws just ruin the whole rock  ::)  oh yea.. kate should really work out some more so she can get strong like a fat trad climber ;)    i mean dave graham hangs his own draws uhh wait no. i mean sharma.. uhh no.. daniel woods... nope i guess his Mowie wowie 13a/b and Bottom feeder 13a flashes won't count, sorry kid.....  oh maybe euros. tony lamiche.. yea no... Josune.. uhh nope..  hmm.. seems like the people climbing hardest the most.. do it on hung draws!

Noobs stealing them as booty?  They can try.. they will fail.  The lowest grade *ive* seen draws on the full route is 12a(orangahang)..  with the majority over 12c   These routes cannot be bootied by rapping off them..
Trad elitists..  don't they already have their own issues with bolting, chopping and pin pulling their own crags to worry about?  

Trad I just don't think it would happen in other areas of rumney..  Flesh generally doesnt have draws on it so it was probably a bit of a shocker for them to see.. Over night is not very long.. especially when you plan to come back in the morning..   leaving them at the bottom is asking for some gumby without a clue to just grab the whole rack and go dancing off the Glory jeans with them..
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M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2007, 07:33:44 PM »

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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juanpaab

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2007, 07:36:12 PM »

I could easily see a noob stealing draws on a .12 route by not rapping, if it was harder .13 and .14 maybe not.  Noobs arent always shitty climbers that cant climb past 5.8 its the attitude they have.  There ethics, the fact that they climb to look cool and many other things can classify you as a noob other then your ability to climb.  Youd either have to be a noob or an asshole to steal someones draws, taking them down is another story though.  Stealing is wrong and unethical, unless your 3 pitches up and you see a nice shiny new camalot.

As for if that looks shitty, i think it does.  I dont want to see draws hanging all over the place, you may think it looks good.  I guess its a perspective thing kinda like,  I grew up in the country and i think the city is the ugliest and uninspiring place ever, but some people think the city is bueatiful and extremely inspiring.

Joe
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 07:39:45 PM by juanpaab »
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acatta

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2007, 07:43:46 PM »

I agree Mark.. But will raise it to a Holy Crap... Ahhh... to be back in Rumney in the eighties....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 08:14:41 PM by Alfonzo »
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M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2007, 07:57:03 PM »

We've created a monster....
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bag11s

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2007, 08:06:02 PM »

Yeh Man!

In November last year I mooched with a pair of climbers for the day who had left their draws on the route Crusher the previous Saturday, since they were projecting it.  We climbed at New Wave for while, and later went over to look at Crusher, which, unfortunately, was wet. The fellow who had left his draws on it did not feel up to retrieving them & seemed a bit freaked, and so his buddy hiked around to the top. He figured out how to lower down the sketchy pine needly bit to the anchor and then, he rapped the route and retrieved his friend,s draws. This caused me to wonder a bit more about the notion of leaving draws on routes.

I have climbed at Rumney for a while, since 1988, and especially in the years 2000 through 2005. Recently- not so much. I have encountered fixed draws rarely on routes I have attempted in all that time. In my experience, (granted not in most recent past) this problem is a rare phenomenon on routes through 12b/c- solid 5.12.  Climbers who commonly climb harder than that do exploit fixed draws more often, and pink pointing (vs. red pointing) becomes more accepted  (or at least more common) as one climbs harder grades. Just stand under Waimea, look up, and you will see what I mean.

I personally have never left draws on routes I was working on, because I wasn,t sure I was going to get back to it the next day (or weekend) and never knew whether the weather would cooperate or whatever, so it seemed natural to take all my expensive stuff home. I guess I assumed my gear might get stolen. I also have a weird (if not neurotic) fondness for my own 16 quick draws that are set up exactly the way I like, and hate it when I loose one (as I have, since I have a memory not to be envied). 

I have red pointed a lot of routes. I have also pink pointed alot of routes, and have felt satisfied. Some routes involved a go that I considered a warm up, maybe with one or more rests, (sometimes learning bolt to bolt).  Some of them (maybe even after efforts on previous days) I even hiked to the top, rapped down, hung the draws, lowered to the ground, rested a good long time, and attempted. If I succeeded, I felt good about doing the route in that style, and moved on. Some other times I pink pointed routes lead by others that day, on their gear- (a higher style than seconding free, perhaps) and that also seemed fair game. A very few routes had preplaced draws. Of course, there are many great routes at Rumney- and in New Hampshire; so far, I have not run out of things that look well wild for the future. 

Apparently, ‘projecting draws, have become a problem since they are starting to be stolen. I think I,ve learned something after reading all your comments, and its been fun, anyway.
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M_Sprague

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2007, 08:13:13 PM »

Ed, I see you on here. You better chime in too.   ;D
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2007, 08:15:20 PM »

Hey, its a rainy day ;)
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ed_esmond

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2007, 09:00:29 PM »

marky,

i think all that needed to be said has been said over and over and over again......

 a great thing about climbing: we can have the same discussions about the same topics, ad nauseum; and the outcome will almost always be the same.

ed e

ps. i left my draws on a bolted sport route somewhere for the last two weeks... if you can find them; you can have them....

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