Author Topic: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?  (Read 7753 times)

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2007, 10:47:00 am »
i had been up for like 20 hours.. i mayyyy have over reacted ;)

thanks for that mark   
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Offline crazyt

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2007, 08:22:53 pm »
 ???  1st there were pitons. Then passive nuts and the like. Then friends and all manner of camming devices. Then bolts ( I know, they've been around since the beginning) in excess. It's evolution. Stop this silly debate over draws and just hang chain w/steel biner off every bolt. Why the fck not?! We place bolts by good natural gear, equip every route with quick clip anchors, rearrange rocks for our comfort, cut down trees for one reason or another, what the fck are we thinking?  Just adding a fixed chain and biner to every bolt is only in  keeping with Rumneys ongoing evolution.   ;D
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Offline David Stowe

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2007, 08:34:42 pm »
I get to Rumney once or twice a year.  It is a long drive which does not lend itself to regular visits.  When I go I have certain climbs in mind that I would like to get on.  If someone is on a particular climb no biggie, I'll just do something else.  Flesh happens to be a route that I have tried a few times over the past few years and I am very close to getting it.  If I got there with no one on the route but with draws hanging I would be pretty put off.  First I really don't want to be climbing on someone elses gear that I do not know.  Additionally to me it does make a difference if I hang my own draws.  It makes the route harder and more challenging.  It also effects the way that you climb and the positions that you need to get into to hang and clip the draws.  Allot of people are talking about ethics being imposed upon them by someone taking down the draws.  Why should someone have to deal with that in the first place.  If you are not currently climbing a route why are you imposing your ethics upon the next person to come along and do the climb.  I can understand leaving your draws hanging on a climb if you are resting at the base for another go at it, but once you leave the climb take your gear.  The route is not yours to do as you please with it.  It belongs to the community.  While you are one the route, by all means take as long as you like, but when done climbing you don't get to keep the route in the condition that you want.  Why should someone else have to deal with your mess and your agenda.  If you want to do the climb the next day then hang the draws again.  If you got them up there once, you can certainly do it again.  Climbing is a sport of accomplishment a pushing your personal limits there is no reason to dumb down the experience for the sake of convience at the expense of others.  Sport climbing is user friendly to begin with does it really need to made completely into a climbing gym.

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2007, 07:16:30 pm »
David.. in this case  Van stated that she was the last to leave and then expected to be the first on it.. this is why she left them up..  she was saving a step for the next day for her send attempt.  she was not trying to impose her ethics on anyone.

The draws could have EASILY been put back after the people were done with it.  have the climber clip in to the anchor.. pull the draws up on a bight of rope and put them back while being lowered.  Even if you disagree with them being left on there.. at least put people's stuff back where they won't get stolen or accidently taken away with your own group's gear (like putting it on your own pack).  Put things back where you find them.

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DLottmann

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2007, 09:41:27 pm »
Put things back where you find them.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, though I am pretty sure I think the whole argument is silly (I'm just now learning sport climbing has ethics), but it isn't as simple as your last statement.  Everyone seems to have a valid point.  I guess on routes that are so overhanging it is very difficult to clean the draws it makes since to have fixed draws.  On routes like Flesh, or Egg McMeadow's (5.9), or A Week with Pete (5.2), where cleaning the route is easy, I would recommend doing that, just in case you are not the very next person to make an attempt.  The party that took them down had a right to, they were essentially abandoned, though good karma would include them making an attempt to re-unite them with their proper owner.  I guess I do know where I stand on this issue...

Offline redpoint73

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2007, 10:47:03 am »
This thread has turned into something that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Fixed draws on overhanging routes is the norm at Rumney and a great many sport crags.

Whether the draws are replaced on Social makes little difference, IMHO.  The clips are far from desperate.

The discussion between pinkpoint vs. redpoint is as relevant as a discussion about the difference between an 8-track player vs. a tape deck.  This is a discussion from olden times, decades ago, and bears little relevance in 2007.

Offline David Stowe

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2007, 11:51:12 am »
The discussion between pinkpoint vs. redpoint is as relevant as a discussion about the difference between an 8-track player vs. a tape deck.  This is a discussion from olden times, decades ago, and bears little relevance in 2007.

Try leading something near your limit with the draws already hanging then try leading it and handing your own draws.  You will find there to be quite a difference.  It is no different than saying that placing your own trad gear and clipping someone elses is the same thing.  Granted placing gear is more invovled than hanging draws, but both require more effort than clipping gear that is already there.  I guess as a trad climber I may see these differences more clearly and probably more important than some who prefers to only sport climb.  There is nothing wrong with either point of view, but to pretend that there is no difference is silly

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2007, 12:06:22 pm »
Its an eletist sport. If you are climbing 5.14 you get to define how the game is played. The guys and gals at the top end have declared pre hung draws to be the standard though you will still be ridiculed if you fix draws on yoda or lonsome dove and then expect to find them still hanging there for your redpoint attempt next weekend or in the fall when its cool and dry.  That which is standard for 5.12c and harder is laughable for 5.10 ;)  The game has gone arround the bend just for number chaseing and convenience. Without prehung draws the hardest climb in the world would probobly be 5.14a or b rather than 5.15a but thats the way the game is played now.

Offline manboobs

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2007, 02:39:17 pm »
I've got manboobs and this route is a piece of cake.  Why do we need to coddle people who can't climb hard - or even 5.10?

People should not be talking schmack about the pins on refuse or the cave.  It will only make me go up and take them out once again.

Staying up 20 hours is no feat either.  I once stayed up climbing for 38 hours in a push - back when I didn't have manboobs.

You guys are a bunch of sallies whining about draws.  Seriously. 

Rumney is a choss pile made for stroking the ego.  There is no real climbing there in the grand scheme so please stop complaing.

Who really feels like a 30 foot boulder problem that is grid bolted has any merit anyhow?  Wait - probably tradmanclimbz

Have a nice day,
Mark
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Offline manboobs

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2007, 02:41:57 pm »
And if I came across my draws that had been taken off and sitting on someone elses pack, I would have kicked their butt.

That stuff wouldn't fly down here in Pawtuckaway.  You would get rolled.

Happy Sport Climbing,
Mark
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Offline crazyt

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2007, 09:19:35 pm »


Rumney is a choss pile made for stroking the ego.  There is no real climbing there in the grand scheme so please stop complaing.

Who really feels like a 30 foot boulder problem that is grid bolted has any merit anyhow? 

Have a nice day,
Mark
Mark, Do you care to tell us how you really feel? 
So far this season I got one draw for booty but it was my own. Does that count?
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Offline rose

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2007, 10:16:01 pm »
 
I get to Rumney once or twice a year.  

explains alot!


Hey trad climbers,
I found a nut at Rumney.  Some old guy boasting about the good ol' days back in '92 (ha!):P
Anyway, describe it and where you might have lost it. 
I'll get it back to you.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 10:38:41 pm by rose »

Offline David Stowe

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2007, 12:34:18 pm »

explains alot!


Hey trad climbers,
I found a nut at Rumney.  Some old guy boasting about the good ol' days back in '92 (ha!):P
Anyway, describe it and where you might have lost it. 
I'll get it back to you.

It explains nothing.  I get there once or twice a year because I live 5 or 6 hours away.  I've been climbing at Rumney for close to 15 years.  I just think that when you are off a route you are off a route.  You should not leave your things behind for the next days activities.  I also don't think that anyone should impose their either upon others.  The rock is a resource for everyone to use.  While you are on a route it is yours to use.  Once you are done climbing that route, you are done and should not leave something behind for the next person to deal with whether that next person would appreciate draws left on the climb or whether they would be aggravated by it.  Just as I should not and would not impose my climbing ethics on you.  Leaving draws behind on a climb is not local ethics, its selfsih and its littering.

Offline redpoint73

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2007, 01:08:45 pm »
Try leading something near your limit with the draws already hanging then try leading it and handing your own draws.  You will find there to be quite a difference.  It is no different than saying that placing your own trad gear and clipping someone elses is the same thing.  Granted placing gear is more invovled than hanging draws, but both require more effort than clipping gear that is already there.  I guess as a trad climber I may see these differences more clearly and probably more important than some who prefers to only sport climb.  There is nothing wrong with either point of view, but to pretend that there is no difference is silly

I wasn't talking about trad climbing.  My point is that the term "pinkpoint" has no modern relevance to sport climbing, especially in the case of fixed draws.  Draws are usually fixed to make a severely steep route (much) easier to clean.  People have turned this from a discussion about functionality to one about style.  I'd like to see you climb Predator on your own draws and clean them.  You would have a really fun time w. that!

On one hand, I've led (and sent) plenty of sport routes at my limit, placing draws as I climbed.  On the other hand, I am more than happy for my partner to hand the draws for me!

I'm not saying there isn't a difference.  But its was decided decades ago that the difference (at least in sport climbing) does not validate a differentiation between "redpoint" and "pinkpoint". 

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Fixed draws (top 2 bolts) of Social Outcast removed?
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2007, 01:36:40 pm »
I wouldn't call it selfish per say. Just lazy. I think Rumny has shown us how a bit of hard work and planning can enable a climbing area to mannage a high number of climber visits without total destruction of the resorce. I love the trail work, anchor replacement and upkeep, parking and bathroom facilitys, reasonably priced pay as you go plan and the  RCAs interaction with the forest service which helps the forest service ballance the needs of climbers with the needs of the land managers. I wouldn't reccomend this approach for all areas but for high traffic  areas some varriations of this approach can be highly bennificial. The things I don't like about Rumny are. Squeeze jobs of dubious quality (anything to get my name in the book)  Bolts on stupidly easy terrain, (even noooooobs should be able to manage short sections of 5.0 terrain unprotected), blatantly bolted gear rts and fixed draws.  It would be nice if Rumny could set the example without the  flaws.