So, to change the subject a little bit, I was somewhat annoyed by a group at the orange crush wall this weekend. When we showed up there was only one other party down the hill from where we were climbing, but as soon as we started checking out a new route (for us) the place got busy. No problem. Then, a group marched right up to our climb and asked how long we'd be. Ok, so we can share a route, no problem. Then they set up below right next to us and just watched us climb, offered beta and discussed their strategy, until we pulled the rope and let them go at it. We were pretty put off by them, and decided to hit another crag. There's so much fun climbing at Rumney and it's pretty easy to find an available route that we didn't feel like we needed to get in their way. I just wish they had felt the same way. I don't mind sharing routes at all and synergy can be a great thing climbing, but I think the ethics debate should turn more towards clifside manners, or lack there of.