Author Topic: general sport crag etiquette  (Read 957 times)

Offline ralbert20

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2007, 12:27:45 PM »
Ok, so I don't think this is quite what Al had in mind for this topic. As usual, it has been hijacked and people are just being argumentative.

I believe what Al wanted was a rational discussion about how to educate all the 'gymmies' who come up from MetroRock, RIRockGym, BRG etc etc and have no clue about really what they are doing outside.

Rumney has become an outdoor gym, which is fantastic, but the lack of education of new climbers is not only appalling, but dangerous.

The things we need to educate people on come right from the basics - even how to clip draws outside can be a lot different. From there, then we can talk about etiquette.

This should include things like:

consideration for your fellow climbers,

trying not to crowd people on a route,  (which is sometimes unavoidable)

how to ask politlely when someone will be finished with a climb,

how to take your rope down when it is crowded to let everyone else have a chance on the route,

how not to set up a bunch of ropes in one particular area so that all of your friends can TR the same line over and over,

how to MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT TR Off the in situ anchors,

how not to talk obnoxiously loudly on your cell phone,

pick up your trash,

erase your tick marks,

keep all of your gear in a neat little pile, 

how to make sure you *never* step on someone else's rope,

how to pass under someone who is being lead belayed, and

how to make sure your dog is tied up and not going to harass people. (Better yet, leave it at home  ;) )

Plus, I am sure there are a ton of things I am forgetting.

Climbing should be enjoyed by all, and it is a shame that the tradition of teaching respect and reverence has been almost obliterated. I learned from some old school brits, and am very glad of the practices that they passed on to me. When I am teaching new people, I am constantly trying to imbue them with the ethics and style which were passed on to me. 

While it is true that the best way to enjoy Rumney is to go there during the week, it is just not always possible for us Massholes. The crowding situation there is getting out of hand, but we all have to remember that we are also part of that crowding. Gone are the days before the lights in Plymouth, gone are the days of no parking lot. We have to face the facts that there are only a limited amount of cliffs, with an expanding population of climbers. We just have to deal with it.

As the saying goes, a little education can go a long way. If you see someone doing something wrong at Rumney (or anywhere else for that matter) let them know. They may swear at you, but just know that you are doing the right thing. (You also may be saving their life, or their partner's)

-Rob



Offline rose

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2007, 02:24:19 PM »
Perhaps gyms should begin to teach some form of etiquette to the masses of people they turn on to the sport?  Or maybe this forum could compile ethical standards and practices and mail it out to gyms to be distibuted to new clients.??


a side bar:

Also, someone made a comment about walking on the street in the correct direction.  I recently avoided a collision with a few boulderers and their pads.  They were walking side by side, stretching into more than half the roadway.  Walking against traffic is the way to go.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 02:27:56 PM by rose »

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2007, 02:29:53 PM »
You should have jumped out and turtled them all. I hope you screamed at them.

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline rose

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2007, 02:37:38 PM »
I got dressed in my school marm uniform and chased them down.


Offline brianwinslow

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2007, 04:38:57 PM »
Rob right on,  JakeDatc you've got some good points too in your reply to my post.  There are a lot of places to climb even on the weekends, and we did move on.  We should have spoken up but didn't, so those people will go on being assholes.  I guess there are no clear cut ethics for overzealous climbers crowding routes and I posted the situation to see what you guys thought.  Am I out of line for being annoyed and passive or is there a way that you guys get people to back off a little bit without creating a tense atmosphere?  I've walked up to many projects to find other parties on them, converse a little and if it seems like they want the space I find something else.   I think that is decent sport climbing etiquette.

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2007, 07:26:36 PM »
Brian.. without being there i dunno what could have been done to have them chill out without making a big scene about it.  simply asking them to not talk about the beta since you are trying to onsite  and to be quieter due to trying to communicate with the climber  might be all you need.  Some people are dicks and won't care.. luckily i haven't seen much of that.

Rob, the gunks look like an outdoor gym some days.. not just the sport areas.  There are people going out everywhere without a clue as to what they actually know.  Alot of your "tips"  are general outdoor courtesy and not really specific to sport climbing.  I agree with them.. but i disagree with what you think this thread is about.

Rose. that sucks.. i see rope climbers and boulderers on the wrong side of the road all the time..  It boggles my mind since there are signs up like everywhere saying to go against traffic.  You'd figure most active outdoor people would know that through running, biking etc but clearly they are waiting for someone to get blasted by a truck coming around the big curve to wake the hell up (i really hope that doesn't happen).  HA turtling woulda been funny.. i saw a great video of someone getting dropped hard by their friend the other day

A lot would be learned from just reading the first chapters of Ward's book (which i think he's going to supplement some in this edition) Or just having a bit of common sense.. but that is in short supply these days.   I am also lucky that i learned from people who did things the right way.
"I really don't know who act like if he have the true." -Champoing

Offline ToddSH

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2007, 08:02:08 AM »
Pretty soon there will be a trail running parallel to the road. This will be a huge help because the locals aren't digging it.

Boulderers at the pound: respect the traffic. Just because you are doing another lap on utility crack and you forget about the road. In my many years of climbing in the area I  have seen way too many close calls.

The best part about rumney is it keeps other realy cool places to climb people free because they are either arguing over a route or ont this forum talking smack.

Todd

Offline tersius

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2007, 12:53:04 PM »
:o  Rumney is a climbing paradise. I've been a little put off lately by what I see as excessive ( the ladder on Waimea, to many bolts on easy,wet, bug filled areas, all those draws,More than a few mature trees cut down, etc) A sign of old age? senility? or just concern for a place that's special?
What do climbers envision as the future? just like trad resisted sport, we will all resist the next generations definition of climbing. Fixed metal draws on every bolt? Is it really that far fetched? Where do we go from here? We can't stagnate the next generation, they will choose a path of their own regardless of what we say.  The only thing you can really count on is that nothing stays the same! Now, about that medication.............

                                                                                                        Tom Bowker

Offline tersius

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2007, 01:35:34 PM »
Right on crazy t,  hopefully you're not armed and dangerous as well as off your meds, another of your fine routes for those who think peer pressure is the only one.  Myself, I would like to see Rumney at the forefront of modern sport climbing by setting the high standard of eliminating all of the very unsightly fixed quick draws.  No exceptions.  Fixed quickdraws are purely a convenience to lazy sport climbers, which is really ironic since most climbers I know are extremely hard working dedicated athletes.  Just think then we can go back to the time when there was a difference between redpointing a route(clipping the draws as you go) and pinkpointing (clipping draws in place) because usually there is a big difference in difficulty.When Mr. 5.13 guy says "I finally got the redpoint on Urban Surfer"  my question to him would be "Oh did you remove the fixed draws and then clip your own?"  Just like we thought we'd never see the 5.15 grade (even though they're all done in pinkpoint style) some day future climbers will be soloing these routes as theyre redpointing 5.16.  Installing permanent draws on routes eliminates the choice for those who want to try the route in the best style possible.  If you want to project a route, hangdog, stickclip whatever it takes to get the bolts clipped then take them home with you when you're done.                                                                                                                                                   
[/quote]
                                                                                                                        Ted Hammond

Offline crazyt

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 07:34:28 AM »
 ;D  Ted, I agree. The difference between clipping a pre-hung draw and placing your own is significant! 
work hard, play harder

Offline acatta

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2007, 02:55:36 PM »
 Yeah boys...Also, I must not understand why someone who can climb from .12b to .14a must use a ladder to bypass .10 climbing.?? When Techno. was frist done there were 2 bolts,no ladder(though it would been funny to see it's maker get it jamed up his arse) and dicey gear.. I'm glad it's almost OSHA approved now.
 All kidding aside, I do like it as a true sport route for it was a very "sporty" route in it's FA mode. Drilling by hand made one search for any natural gear/pin placements. But that confounded ladder should go.
"steal your face right off your head"

Offline crazyt

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2007, 06:48:52 PM »
Yeah boys...Also, I must not understand why someone who can climb from .12b to .14a must use a ladder to bypass .10 climbing.?? When Techno. was frist done there were 2 bolts,no ladder(though it would been funny to see it's maker get it jamed up his arse) and dicey gear.. I'm glad it's almost OSHA approved now.
 All kidding aside, I do like it as a true sport route for it was a very "sporty" route in it's FA mode. Drilling by hand made one search for any natural gear/pin placements. But that confounded ladder should go.

  I think Ted pulled all the pins when he took a near groundfall whipper when near the anchor!! Yikes!!!!
work hard, play harder

Offline rose

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2007, 01:03:37 AM »

I love it up here. 

 ;D

Would love to attend a local meeting to help with the crag.
Are there regular meetings?

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2007, 02:30:51 PM »
Cut and pasted from Newengland bouldering...a little out of context but it has points relevent to here and I don't feel like rewiting it:

Sorry to hijack from the wonderful topic of Ken, but Tom, what exact trad routes of yours at Rumney are you concerned about? I am trying to think of any trad routes of yours that have been retroed.

I always thought you were fine with equipment upgrading of your routes at Rumney. From conversations we have had at the crag before, you never gave me the impression that you were upset about anything more than the crowds. I added a bolt to the slab of Armed and Dangerous to eliminate the bad fall potential (25 footer onto a slabby ledge) I haven't heard of a single other person who disagreed with that decision, though I don't doubt there are a few. Other parts were retroed  before by Tim Kemple Sr. and/or Ward earlier I believe. Frankly, I like A & D, but the condition in which you originally protected the route, in the context of Rumney being a sport area, was a bit jacked.

I applaud your call to attention to aesthetics. Indeed ,"Visual ugliness is not a prerequisite to having bolted routes". I too was grossed out when the ladder was first put up at Waimea. After using it a few times I still think it is ugly, but it sure helps eliminate the clusterfuck traffic jam when people are trying to access 9 routes all from the same start. Chains, well I don't think they are a huge problem at Rumney. Most anchors are two bolts with double 1/2" quicklinks on them, with some Quickclips. Generally chains are only used where needed. Piles of shredded rope on climbs is pretty unsightly to me. I think your call for people to top out is a bad one, fine for a cliff that receives only a few ascents a year but not Rumney, and rapping is fine for slabs and face routes but not recommended for steep sport routes especially if you don't want fixed draws left.

I think the points you brought up and the discussions around them here and on Newenglandclimbing are useful, but it seems that some of your consternation just comes from seeing change. Your attitude seems a bit old school too, like I saw in some of the older "sport" routes at City of Rocks when American sport climbing was just starting. Routes were neither sport or trad, just kind of jacked. Rumney is not what it used to be and it is not going to be. I too remember when there were far, far fewer people there, and you were there before I was. There is a certain magic that is lost when lots of people frequent an area. Hopefully a new magic can be created  that makes it worth it. There is always a balance that has to be made. I try to add it back in how I do trail work etc., the way it flows, using a particular rock etc. If a sense of peacefulness can be created to counter some of the agro urbaneness you get with a heavily used area, that is great. I suppose if we were to follow your dictate and not move any rocks "for convenience" we would just have a bunch of ugly eroded gullies and no vegetation on the tops of the cliffs. I can't think that you would really want that. Talk about ugly.

I have spoken with pretty much all of the first ascentionist at rumney (even Hassig, and he said go for it!) and by and large, they have all been supportive of the retroing that has gone on there. A few have expressed reservations at the number of routes and the bolting of easy ones, but come on Ted and Al like to solo multipitch routes on Cannon, so I take their comments about easy routes with a grain of salt ;-).

And Ed, I only bolt classics.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: general sport crag etiquette
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2007, 03:33:51 PM »
Rose, we don't often have formal meetings unless something big is going on. Mostly a number of us get together at the crag and discuss things a bit then quickly get on to other activities. You are welcome to join us. If there are issues people would like to discuss in person (usually a more cordial atmosphere) or more formal decisions need to be made, we could pull together a meeting. It might be good too, to maintain our political coherence for dealing with the forest service if the need should arrive. A number of us showed up at the meeting with the FS a couple months ago and we had a good working meeting with them. It is a good idea to bring your posse so you can stack the deck for any decisions like "let's retro all of Tom's routes and fix draws on them".

As far as things to individually do at the crag, everybody should  just do a little here and there. quicklinks always need to be replaced, branches moved out of the trail, old unsightly quickdraws removed/possibly replaced, wobbly steps shored up. Something that does need to be done is something should be written up with maybe a drawing to go on the small parking lot kiosk that encourages people to double and triple the cars up and not hog a whole column with one car. They should move to the main lot if they are worried about getting blocked in. A lot more cars would fit if people followed this. I prefer to do my stone trailwork by myself so there isn't the "too many cooks" syndrome, but I imagine at some point we will have a trail day with the forest service and there will be a call for hands to make a trail parallel to the road

By the way, I have a deal with my local hardware store to get 1/2" quicklinks for $3.07 each. I have been buying them for anchors at $75-$100 a time and it adds up. Now I am flat broke. If people would like to donate, I would be happy to pick them up and we can get any other worn anchors fixed up.

Rose, just see me and I will get you keyed in on the secret handshake and passwords etc.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson