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Author Topic: Question for experienced Rumney route developers  (Read 758 times)

Derek Doucet

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Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« on: June 01, 2007, 09:52:22 AM »

Hello-

A question for all of you active Rumney route developers. First, to avoid flaming, a bit about me and the routes we develope. I've been climbing for over 15 years, and developing new routes for about 8. I've equipped several dozen sport or mixed gear and bolts routes, all on schist similar to the rock at Rumney. I know how to bolt responsibly.  The routes we've developed see nowhere near the traffic level as those at Rumney, and so we've tended to not bother with glue-ins. They seem like overkill for these routes, but perhaps we need to reconsider. Now to my questions:

1. Given that the routes in question might see 75 ascents in a very busy season, do you feel glue-ins are necessary? Remember, the rock in question is pretty similar to Rumney's schist. For reference, a 10mm hole takes on average perhaps a minute to drill 6" deep (unless you hit a quartz crystal...) with an Annilhator and decent bit in this stone.

2. If you were not going to use glue-ins, what mechanicals have you found to work well in schist? We've tried a bunch, but I'd like opinions from folks with experience bolting in schist specifically, or medium to medium-soft rock in general.

Thanks in advance...


-Derek
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Derek Doucet

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 03:18:19 PM »

Bump....

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

-D
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Admin Al

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 04:43:06 PM »

good questions... I'm sure someone will reply, if not over the weekend then next week. the board is kind of slow on Friday & the weekend in the summer.

--al
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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 05:03:14 PM »

 ???  I've drilled all my bolts by hand. It's a labor of love. My question is when did power tools become a part of a climbers outdoor experience?
WTF are you folks thinking?  Without power drills would the abundance of worthless routes at Rumney even exist?

                                                                                         Old and in the way,
                                                                                          Tom Bowker
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M_Sprague

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 07:42:36 PM »

 ;DThe other day as I was driving in southern RI, I passed a guy going twenty five and weaving all over the road. When I looked over I could have sworn it was you. For a second I was thinking "What the hell is Tom doing down here?"

CrazyT- you will have to come out with me and drill some holes with my Annihilator. You will never go back. Drilling by hand sucks unless you only do one here or there and far between, and with a giant spleef hanging out of your mouth. Personally, I think there is more chance of not doing it right when drilling by hand; more impetus to use smaller bolts etc.. There is something to be said for the extra effort of hand drilling slowing you down and maybe making someone think twice before putting up another route. You might not think so, but I try to think about my routes a lot and climb up and down them before I set to drilling anyway.

Power drills are the way to go though. My drill is not even one of the newer more powerful types, but it is almost orgasmic to use. A new battery and a fresh bit gives you an incredible feeling and you can make Swiss cheese of the rock in no time if you so desire. If I could fit them in my pack when new routing I would like to have my drill, a chainsaw, leaf blower and a power washer, as well as a twenty ton jack and eight foot crowbar. But, I have always been a follower of the leave no trace theory. You might have a different way of working.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss routes just because they are not to your taste, though I do agree that some of the routes at Rumney, as anywhere, are kind of silly. Just because you or even I might not want to climb something doesn't mean that there might be people lining up to do it. Look at the many gross slab routes at the Meadows.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 09:02:43 PM by M_Sprague »
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M_Sprague

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 09:00:16 PM »

Derek- I tend to like glue-ins for schist, but they have their down side, mainly the difficulty to remove them.. I use 3 and 4"shank X 1/2 heavy galvanized forged eyebolts that I get from Fastenal. The part #s are 42442 and 42444. I just bought some and the prices were $5.07 and $5.92 each + tax. I think if they are countersunk so the back inside of the eye is flush with the rock surface and they are glued neatly, they are better looking than bolts with hangers. With the price of 1/2" SS Rawl bolts being so expensive now, plus the price of good hangers, they end up being the same if not cheaper than the Rawls, even including the glue. I use Red Head A7 for glue, which you can also get at Fastenal. I usually call a few days before so the local store will get everything from their stock warehouse.

I use Rawls when I put up routes on granite or occasionally at Rumney on the really high quality patches of rock, but I do find that they loosen up after a while on schist, especially on the overhanging stuff where people are swinging around on the bolts. If your cliff doesn't see much traffic, you could probably get away with the non glue-ins fine for most of the bolts. It depend more on your aesthetics. If you are really sure of your bolting skills and the local community's wish to have the bolts there forever, I would go with the glue-ins and use SS where they are often wet. Make sure you put sets of 1/2" quicklinks on the anchor bolts right away so you don't have people pulling their ropes directly through the eyebolts.

A friend did some tests and was supposedly able to get a glue-in out by heating it up with a torch until the glue softened and then used a bar on it. I have a few at Rumney that I wouldlike to remove, but I haven't tried this yet as I am not too keen on using a torch while hanging on a nylon rope. It is going to require some careful logistics and back ups.

If you have any more specific questions, I will be back after the weekend and I will try to answer them.
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bag11s

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 10:03:47 PM »

Not from a developer, but from a user-

If you are weak, like me, you will have to work hard to get a route like Giant Man. As you dangle, you may look about you- and you may come to appreciate the amount of effort and materials that the author put into realizing the cool thing. They designed the pro for it- eyebolt & bolt and hanger, to coordinate with the clipping locations based on the rock,s natural architecture. They pumped hours of labor and & a certain amount of not cheap materials into it.

On this particular route, you may be resting in the middle of the steep bit, meditating & living in that moment. Just look around- at every single thing around you. For me it is a kind of a  wow! moment. 

It may be that bolting a route like this without a power drill would be beyond possible. Thank you very much for this route and all the others, Mark & everyone who has made this a ridiculously fun place to climb.
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crazyt

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2007, 08:07:32 AM »

;DThe other day as I was driving in southern RI, I passed a guy going twenty five and weaving all over the road. When I looked over I could have sworn it was you. For a second I was thinking "What the hell is Tom doing down here?"

CrazyT- you will have to come out with me and drill some holes with my Annihilator. You will never go back. Drilling by hand sucks unless you only do one here or there and far between, and with a giant spleef hanging out of your mouth. Personally, I think there is more chance of not doing it right when drilling by hand; more impetus to use smaller bolts etc.. There is something to be said for the extra effort of hand drilling slowing you down and maybe making someone think twice before putting up another route. You might not think so, but I try to think about my routes a lot and climb up and down them before I set to drilling anyway.

Power drills are the way to go though. My drill is not even one of the newer more powerful types, but it is almost orgasmic to use. A new battery and a fresh bit gives you an incredible feeling and you can make Swiss cheese of the rock in no time if you so desire. If I could fit them in my pack when new routing I would like to have my drill, a chainsaw, leaf blower and a power washer, as well as a twenty ton jack and eight foot crowbar. But, I have always been a follower of the leave no trace theory. You might have a different way of working.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss routes just because they are not to your taste, though I do agree that some of the routes at Rumney, as anywhere, are kind of silly. Just because you or even I might not want to climb something doesn't mean that there might be people lining up to do it. Look at the many gross slab routes at the Meadows.


  Mark, I reserve my weaving to Maines' dirt back roads. Just me,critters and trees.
I've borrowed a friends drill for maintainance purposes, I understand. Maybe I'm afraid of myself with drill in hand.  You and team tough generally do an awesome job new routing.
  I actually believe there is a better chance of doing it right drilling by hand. The effort is significant enough that I really make sure it's what I want before striking the first blow.
  Peer Pressure was done ground up over 2 weekends with my regular partner in crime Jay Lena. I wouldn't trade that experience for a power drill for anything.
Hand drilling is akin to logging with a horse. Power drills are more like using a skidder.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 08:51:47 AM by Admin Al »
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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2007, 08:57:05 AM »

Tom,

so you put up Peer Pressure. SWEET!!!! that is my favorite route at Rumney. granted I rarely go there & don't climb very hard, but it is just such a wonderful line. however you did it, you did it right. congrats...

--al
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acatta

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 10:54:35 AM »

Tom perhaps you should tell why the name "Peer Pressure" as with many of the routes I was in on or was around at the time of FA, the names & stories behind it are quite interesting..For we were very cut throat then.. steal your route, gear & woman...
 In case you don't know who this is .. We last talked on Washington in April, you were skinning up the summit cone.. I was heading to Monroe....
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JakeDatc

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 10:36:02 PM »

I agree..  stories behind FA's can be great..  It's fun thinking about how they were put up..  Cold Feet up at Hinterlands in plastic boots,  Cold turkey below freezing and hailing..   I wonder how many people would actually see the darth vadar formation if it weren't named that.   I also wish the guide had more indexes to list the routes by Grade and another for FA..
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crazyt

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2007, 08:03:22 AM »

Tom perhaps you should tell why the name "Peer Pressure" as with many of the routes I was in on or was around at the time of FA, the names & stories behind it are quite interesting..For we were very cut throat then.. steal your route, gear & woman...
 In case you don't know who this is .. We last talked on Washington in April, you were skinning up the summit cone.. I was heading to Monroe....



Alan, Was that a great day or what?!  Hope you made it out without postholeing! 

Peer Pressure:   Yea, back in the day if you put a red tag (project) on your route it was more akin to having a neon sign flashing"FA open to anyone". (Ted)
 As my poor memory recalls jay Lena and I had just finished putting in the hardware on the upper section on our second day of effort. I was spent, hand drilling from hooks (including a big whipper) was exhausting. Ted hammond and Tom Armstrong (was there someone else?) were climbing on Waimea and they heard my hammering and decided to investigate. They were eyeing my effort like a couple of vultures eyeing a feast and asked if I'd freed it. The answer was no, I could barely lift my arms over my head at that point, and they were going to hop right on it if I didn't! Shit, I wasn't going to let that happen so I made an attempt only to fail at the last bolt (mega pump). Ted and Tom seconded it free but there wasn't enough daylight left for anybody else to lead it  Jay and I had to play hooky from work the next day knowing if we didn't we wouldn't get the FFA.
  Ted, thank you for inspiring myself and others to climb harder!
Note: I've always been a bottom feeder in climbing ability compared to Ted, Tom and others. My routes at Rumney had less to do with ability and more to just being at the right place at the right time and being motivated. Those of you who only climb 5.7 shouldn't feel you need to be a top gun to do FAs. If you see a new line that gets you psyched, do it! First come first serve!
                                                                                        Tom
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ed_esmond

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2007, 11:19:28 AM »


derek,

mark's advice is good.  glue-ins are great, but have the problems he's mentioned (and if it's a steep route, you can't "bolt your way down" the cliff, clipping to the new bolts as you go down.

i think the rawl/powers 5 (or 6) piece ones are the way to go.  they are more expensive than the stud type, but i think they're stronger.  i don't like the fixe studs at all. i haven't used their "triplex" bolt or petzl bolts either, so i have no opinion on them.

if you decide to mix rawls and glue-ins, i'd recommend glue-ins for the first bolt, the bolt at the crux, under overhangs and the anchors.

in softer rock (as in many things in life) longer is better.  a 3/8"x3-1/2 bolt is a better choice than a 1/2"x2" bolt.  i've heard of 3/8" bolts breaking while being tightened, but i have a hard time imagining that happening in shist (perhaps it's a problem in hard granite....)

hope this helps.


another bottom feeding climber who trys to practice "routes for the rest of us...."
ed e

ps. tom b. says "Hand drilling is akin to logging with a horse. Power drills are more like using a skidder."  i hope he was using sealskin climbing skins, hickory skis and leather boots that day on mt washington.

pps. centerpiece is my second favorite .10 at rumney.... (after millenium falcon.)

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crazyt

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 06:45:36 PM »



ps. tom b. says "Hand drilling is akin to logging with a horse. Power drills are more like using a skidder."  i hope he was using sealskin climbing skins, hickory skis and leather boots that day on mt washington.

[/quote]

 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Maybe I should have just bought a lift ticket at Wildcat and rode the chair.
Ed, I'm a little slow I guess. I totally don't get your point. Or, maybe you didn't get mine.
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ed_esmond

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 07:47:07 AM »


ps. tom b. says "Hand drilling is akin to logging with a horse. Power drills are more like using a skidder."  i hope he was using sealskin climbing skins, hickory skis and leather boots that day on mt washington.

 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Maybe I should have just bought a lift ticket at Wildcat and rode the chair.
Ed, I'm a little slow I guess. I totally don't get your point. Or, maybe you didn't get mine.

tom,

maybe i am missing your point, but...

it sounds like you're wishing to live (and more disturbingly, have the rest of us live) in a romanticized version of the past: "you should have seen rumney 20 years ago...", "hand drills are better than power drills," and  "logging with horses versus skidders...."

and then there's underlying tone of moral superiority of: "back in the day, when we we hard, we did it the right way.  oh, and you all suck because you're not us...."

it seems to me that sort of person should be equally appalled at shaped skiis, nylon skins and thermo-fitted boots...  after all they make skiing too easy.  next thing everyone will be doing it, cheapening the experience for the real skiiers.  that will lead to more tracked-out powder, and then everything will be lifted serviced crap.....

i'm pretty sure you don't really mean that (or at least i really hope that's not what you meant,) but that's what i heard...

when painting with a broad brush; its hard to make a fine line....

respectfully,

ed



 
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