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Author Topic: Question for experienced Rumney route developers  (Read 575 times)

Derek Doucet

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 08:49:32 AM »

Hi Mark and Ed-

Thanks for the input. I'm actually a bit surprised that you've both had such good luck with Rawl 5-pieces (though it sounds like Ed is pretty selective in where he places them, and has had some loosening issues). We've actually found them to loosen pretty quickly, and had much better luck with the Raumer or Fixe studs. Specifically, the long ones with two exansion cones along thier length. The two expansion cones seem to be key, because we've found the single cone variety to be terrible, loosening very quickly, and being extremely sensitive to any dust at all left in the holes. I wonder how 12mm Petzl Longlifes would do in schist? They're billed as being suited for hard rock, but it seems as though they'd grip along the entire shaft length as opposed to just the cone, which intuitively seems like a considerable advantage. I've only placed a couple-few at rap anchors over the years, which is a different animal entirely than a bolt that gets pitched on to regularly...

Cheers,

Derek

PS-

As for the power drill / hand drill debate, I've used both, top-down and on the lead, and when the end goal is hole-quality, there's truely not even a question. And for anyone who hasn't tried it, I can assure them that drilling on the lead with a power drill does not detract a great deal from the challenge or adventure of the endeavor. Climbing with 12lbs of sharp ballast strapped to your ass, or hanging on for dear life while pulling it up from the last pro on the tag line, using one hand and your teeth, when the clock is tic tic ticking away is plenty entertaining. But then, I like shaped skis too, so perhaps I'm biased.

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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2007, 10:04:38 AM »

Just hikeing up to the cliff with that power drill in your pack allong with all the rest of your gear is a real bear!! I finaly got a power drill because my tendonitis does not like hand drilling but i will only use it if the approach is reasonable and I plan on drilling more than one or two holes. One or two holes with any kind of a hike I would still use the hand drill. Derec, do the bolts that loosen on you get lowered off of a lot? When it's overhanging and your lowering the draws get pulled up and spin the hangers. That seems to be the only places that I have had troubble with the fixe studs and rawl 5 piece loosening. I have also had a top anchor loosen that has a lot of top ropeing done off of it with traversing to the side. Same kind of motion pretty much.  I have had good luck with both the fixe stud and 5 piece on everything that is verticle or less. If the 5 piece hole is exactly the length of the bolt when installed when the hanger gets yarded back a forth a few dozen times it grinds the rock down under the hanger and now you have a spinner that you can't tighten because the hole is too shallow. With the fixe stud you can at least tighten the bolt.
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Derek Doucet

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 03:53:35 PM »

Hey Trad-

There's no question that some of the loosening Rawl 5-Pieces get tugged in awkward directions when folks lower off, and we're certainly aware of that issue. It is interesting, though, that none of the Raumer / Fixe double expansion cone variety, which also get tugged around on lowers, seem to have the problem.  The routes in question are all pretty steep.

-Derek
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M_Sprague

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 04:02:16 PM »

Derek- Do you have a good source for the double cone bolts that you are using?  Maybe a link and part #? I would like to check them out.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 04:03:13 PM »

The doubble cone stud wedge bolts seem to be working well for you but they must be pretty darn pricey? Are they more expensive than glue ins?
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Derek Doucet

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2007, 04:14:07 PM »

I used to get the Raumer ones from Climb High, but they no longer distribute them. These:

http://www.fixeusa.com/sale_003.htm

...look identical, and are only $5.60 including hanger. Not as cheap as the Raumers, but still not too bad. While they are not the exact ones I've had good luck with, I see no reason to think they'll perform much differently than the Raumers. The only downside (shared with the Raumers) is that 10mm SDS bits are pricey and sometimes tough to come by.

I just ordered 20 of these guys to give em' a test drive. I'll post up when I've got some results!

-Derek
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crazyt

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Re: Question for experienced Rumney route developers
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2007, 05:02:31 PM »

tom,

maybe i am missing your point, but...

it sounds like you're wishing to live (and more disturbingly, have the rest of us live) in a romanticized version of the past: "you should have seen rumney 20 years ago...", "hand drills are better than power drills," and  "logging with horses versus skidders...."

and then there's underlying tone of moral superiority of: "back in the day, when we we hard, we did it the right way.  oh, and you all suck because you're not us...."

it seems to me that sort of person should be equally appalled at shaped skiis, nylon skins and thermo-fitted boots...  after all they make skiing too easy.  next thing everyone will be doing it, cheapening the experience for the real skiiers.  that will lead to more tracked-out powder, and then everything will be lifted serviced crap.....

i'm pretty sure you don't really mean that (or at least i really hope that's not what you meant,) but that's what i heard...

when painting with a broad brush; its hard to make a fine line....

respectfully,

ed



 

Ed, The point I was trying to make, using logging as a metaphor is this: If you've ever seen a forest logged with a horse you'll notice a quality of forest that doesn't exist when said forest is ravaged and raped by a skidder.
  When it comes to technology I've usually embraced it ( sometimes slowly). Technology seems to keep pace with my age so I can still play!  I just view power drills in the same vain as a skidder. I think Rumney would have sustained a higher quality ambiance without them and most of the choss routes would never have come to be.
 I also think the area history would be richer as a result. I also think you'd see a greater number of contributers and not the same names all the time.  It's hard to compete with power drills. One route I had my eye on as a trad line was Red Alert. I found the 5.10 was bolted by a 5.13 climber. Upon climbing the route I couldn't come close to clipping one of the bolts and came back down to get some gear. I clipped 1 bolt of three and used gear on the rest and managed to top out without clipping the chains dangling from the lip. Ultimitly I think the first ascentionest cheated himself out of a much more rewarding experience. I'm usually quite happy if I get in one new route a year. It's usually quite memorable and sharing the adventure with a friend/s is paramount to my climbing experience.
 Just more food for thought Bro.
                              Peace,
                                 Tom
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