Author Topic: Tragic Irony  (Read 1820 times)

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Tragic Irony
« on: June 04, 2007, 11:19:16 AM »
Mike McGlynn who  unfourtunatly was featured in the R&I accident report this month had recently had a letter condeming soloing published in R&I. Mikes possition was that soloing was iresponsible and too dangerous for climbers with children and familys. Ironicly Mike was killed while roped climbing just a few weeks after his letter was published.
  I sometimes get the you shouldn't solo treatment from my significant other as well as a few other climbers one of which had a serious accident top ropeing.  My feelings on this are that soloing on terrain that is well,  well within your comfort zone is safer than lead climbing  at or near your limit. Yikes! I better not submit this post :o
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 01:33:36 PM by tradmanclimbz »

JLL

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Re: Karma
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 06:02:14 PM »
Mike McGlynn who  unfourtunatly was featured in the R&I accident report this month had recently had a letter condeming soloing published in R&I. Mikes possition was that soloing was iresponsible and too dangerous for climbers with children and familys. Consequently Mike was killed while roped climbing just a few weeks after his letter was published.
  I sometimes get the you shouldn't solo treatment from my lover as well as a few other climbers one of which had a serious accident top ropeing.  My feelings on this are that soloing on terrain that is well,  well within your comfort zone is safer than lead climbing  at or near your limit. Yikes! I better not submit this post :o

No, you should not have submitted this post.  Why would you call someone dying after expressing their opinion "karma".  If someone disagrees w/ you have they committed such an evil act as to warrant the penalty of death?  You write, "Consequently Mike was killed while roped climbing just a few weeks after his letter was published", suggesting that this was a direct result of disagreeing w/ soloing.  Maybe (???) you're just not that good w/ words, but you should think a little about what you've written before hitting that "POST" button.  I've read a few online forums lately during this rainy spell and have noticed your opinion being expressed freely.  Watch out if someone disagrees w/ you, it could be dangerous. 

Really, this doesn't even deserved to be dignified w/ a response, but I found your submission too egregious to ignore.

..................not to mention your egregious use of the word "lover", but that's another thread.........

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Karma
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 06:50:35 PM »
I am guessing that Trad meant "subsequently". I am not clear exactly how Karma has anything to do with this or indeed what connection Tradman meant to make. Come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't step in here. Tradman, is JLL your "lover" :-X
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbrait

RAH

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Re: Karma
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 07:54:34 PM »
For several season my "mantra" was "I will not solo grade 3 ice, I will not solo grade 3 ice..."  This was my mantra mainly because I have a wife and two children.  People solo for many different reasons.  But I notice in myself, climbing friends, and in climbing literature, a tendancy to solo as a result of stress and frustration.  This past winter I soloed a lot to "burn the stupidity of my colleagues out of my head".  After 8 consecutive days on which I either did not rope up or dropped my harness after a lap or two, I just had to take myself firmly in hand and say to myself "STOP, no more soloing".  Admittedly, soloing ice is a less risky proposition than soloing rock because of the potential for a solid running belay, but nevertheless the point is you need to be very aware of your reasons for soloing and also aware of your own limits.

As for Karma...here are too many words that say it better than I can:

INSTANT KARMA
(John Lennon)

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you right on the head
You better get yourself together
Pretty soon you're gonna be dead
What in the world you thinking of
Laughing in the face of love
What on earth you tryin' to do
It's up to you, yeah you

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna look you right in the face
Better get yourself together darlin'
Join the human race
How in the world you gonna see
Laughin' at fools like me
Who in the hell d'you think you are
A super star
Well, right you are

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Ev'ryone come on

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you off your feet
Better recognize your brothers
Ev'ryone you meet
Why in the world are we here
Surely not to live in pain and fear
Why on earth are you there
When you're ev'rywhere
Come and get your share

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Come on and on and on on on
Yeah yeah, alright, uh huh, ah

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
On and on and on on and on

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun

barryj

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Re: Karma
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 11:40:48 PM »

Hey Tradman,
You must have cabin fever from all this rain to post this topic!

Sometimes I feel like  my karma ran over my dogma...does that count?

On the serious side, soloing because of, or to deal with stress and anxiety seems like asking for (more) trouble IMHO.

I solo Grade 3 ice frequently  ...in training for the Alps, where you need to be able to cover moderate terrain quickly, which usually means simal at best  or solo.


My wife and kids know the risks involved in "Dad's work, as we have talked about it and cover all the "what if's" before each big trip or expedition.  but they wouldn't be any less at a loss if i died soloing or roped at home or abroad.

Unfortuantly it seems the media and the climbing community are unified in flaming a climber that dies attempting something risky, but applauds climbers that live to tell the tale.

So, it seems the only difference between "Being Bold" or "Being Stupid" is if you live or die?

I guess my point is....consider what Your willing to risk before putting your life (and your family) on the line.

Any doubt....don't do it!

barryj

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Karma
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 09:00:33 AM »
Ok I totaly worded that wrong. No disrespect intended for the victim. I just find it really interesting that the guy who points a finger at soloists as being too risky ends up perrishing while roped climbing which he has implyed is safer than soloing. 99% of the time when I solo it is not some angst thing but simply because I can't find a partner or I just want to do a few easy laps as a warm up or cool down. I am a big chicken roped or un roped so I only solo stuff that I have totaly wired or its 4 grades or so below my  lead level. The thing that annoys me is when I am told that I am crazy for soloing by someone who leads risky somtimes poorly protected climbs. Even moderate well protected climbs like Moby Grape have literaly dozens of places where a fall would be catostrophic. Soloing at your limit is a whole differnt ballgame but the players in that game are few and far between....

DWarriner

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Re: Karma
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 10:02:16 AM »
....Admittedly, soloing ice is a less risky proposition than soloing rock ...

Um, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you there....

Jim_Ewing

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Re: Karma
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 10:15:06 AM »
I think the word we are looking for here is 'irony' and not karma.

and yeah, soloing is soloing, the risk is the same for both rock and ice.  Gravity makes no distinction.

DWarriner

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Re: Karma
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 11:17:23 AM »
tradmanclimbz, Jim hit the nail on the head. 

Karma implies getting what you deserve (good or bad) - where as irony is just an odd confluence of events.

The victim of this accident did not deserve to meet his fate.  That said, it is certainly ironic that he is in 2 successive issues of R&I on both sides of an accident.

Perhaps you should rename the post "tragic irony," so as not to offend anyone.

-David

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Karma
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 12:02:44 PM »
Or another way to put it: "Yo, that's f#*ked up"
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbrait

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Tragic Irony
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 01:07:46 PM »
OK post is changed to hopefully get at least part of that muddy size 11 workboot out of my mouth ??? seriously though,  Roped climbing is  dangerous stuff.  Soloing is also dangerous. My point is that an experienced climber soloing an easy climb that they feel comfortable on is safer than an experienced climber leading a climb at or near their limit. It's also safer than a noob top ropeing 8) To lead a 5.10 for instance you would not expect to place gear every 2 meters on the 5.7 section of that climb. Often a fall from the easy section of a climb can be horrible even when you plug the ocasional piece of gear in while you are cruising yet the same climber who routienly does this will look at the guy cruising up the 5.7 ropeless and tell his partner that guys an idiot?? As for ice INMOP you better be able to solo short sections of whatever grade you plan on leading and reasonably long sections of ice a full grade or maby 1.5 grades easier than your lead goal. So I guess I will go on the record that Ice soloing is mandatory to be a safe ice leader INMOP.

Offline maznev

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Re: Tragic Irony
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 05:42:22 PM »
Quote
To lead a 5.10 for instance you would not expect to place gear every 2 meters on the 5.7 section of that climb. Often a fall from the easy section of a climb can be horrible even when you plug the ocasional piece of gear in while you are cruising yet the same climber who routienly does this will look at the guy cruising up the 5.7 ropeless and tell his partner that guys an idiot??

One aspect to consider here: yes, you don't place gear every 2m on easy sections, but you have you gear with you and can place it whenever you like. Sometimes you climb an easy pitch and don't place any gear at all - I'd say it's still much safer than soloing the same pitch, because with a rope you always have an option to start placing gear. Also, the consequences of a fall on easy run-out sections may be serious, but you still have a high probability to survive.  The probability to survive a fall soloing a long climb is close to zero.