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Author Topic: Update on missing pins  (Read 539 times)

ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2003, 03:53:49 PM »

no sweat om.  i scan these replies pretty quickly myself.  :)
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2003, 04:09:57 PM »

Al,

Let me ask you this...  if some pins have been placed in a place that is obviously wrong, is it considered 'stealing' if those pins are subsequently removed by someone trying to keep the cliff from being cluttered with needless hardware?  Or do you believe that once the gear is there, it must be left there since it belongs to the person who placed it to begin with, even if placed wrongly?

Here is my simplistic view... the thought of there being less fixed gear on Cathedral and Whitehorse doesn't bother me.  It may take hard work and cold cash to place the gear, but that doesn't make it right.  I'm not endorsing the actions taken by the joker ripping off the pins, but I'm not all bummed out about the results.  I know this pisses people off, but I prefer to see the cliffs in as natural a state as possible which I have said numerous times on the record.

For those of you who do drill bolts and place pins, is there any guilt at all while you are defacing the rock?

A
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Admin Al

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2003, 06:35:56 PM »

well let's put it this way... those routes were put up by people intending to create 5.5, 5.6 or 5.7 routes - NOT 5.5x, 5.6x or 5.7x routes.  the fact that YOU consider the gear superfluous  that makes them not be R rated is shall I say "elitest and egotistical." what gives you the right to say that "some pins have been placed in a place that is obviously wrong"? because they keep someone from getting 30' runout on a 5.6 but you can climb it with no problem? does that make it "obviously wrong?" I can climb the first pitch of Recompense without using a single pin, only my own gear. does that make those pins "wrong?"  I don't think so. I think that you have some serious flaws in your thinking.

you can say that you "prefer to see the cliffs in as natural a state as possible." so that means that you don't climb Hotter Than Hell, Lost Souls, Loose Lips, Children's Crusade, Ventilator, the Saigons, Cold Day In Hell, Robinson Crusoe or any one of 100+ other climbs that would not exist without some amount of fixed protection. I'm sorry, but I find that difficult to believe. but maybe I am wrong. maybe you're a 5.13 climber, who has no problem doing any of the above listed piddling little climbs without any fixed gear and you want to keep the cliff pristine for only those who  can climb at that level. you know, screw the rest of us who can't manage a 5.8 like the Saigons with 1 or 2 pieces of gear per pitch. or who doesn't mind making the step off the block, crux face moves and traverse to the flake/crack on Loose Lips with no protection.

hey, maybe I underestimate you. if you are that kind of climber then give me a holler sometime. I'd love to belay you up Children's Crusade and watch you do it without clipping any pins or bolts. Or maybe not, since without the bolt anchor on the top of the 1st pitch I'm not going to let you belay me up.

Al  
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haircity

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2003, 08:35:45 PM »

The true mark of classic climb is that it can be sufficiently protected by both the accomplished and aspiring leader of the grade.

Look at the posts of the "10 Best Routes" thread. Far-and-away most of them protect sufficiently on all pitches.

That may not be the objective of some route authors. They may only want to be reviewed by thier "bolder" peers. That's fine.

I'd rather be complemented on my cool route by everyone, not just the local hard-man.

"There are old climbers and there are bold climbers...but there are no old, bold climbers....."


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Adam P. Tambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2003, 01:05:07 AM »

OK, everyone, especially Al,  LISTEN CAREFULLY, because I,ve had enough, and it,s about time someone told you how it is, or at least , how it should be...

Let,s begin with some straight up honesty, so you know who I am, and so that no one feels alienated....  I,m NOT a 5.13 climber, I ONLY climb trad, and right NOW that means 5.10 and under...  for now...

I,ve about had it with all this BS.  Who the Hell do ALL of you think you are?? I,ve been polite up until now, but even gentlemen have limits, and not being one, I,m well passed mine...  let,s up the ante to a higher level...

Long before any of you saw the righteous light of our sun, these cliffs stood NEARLY still, unmarked by modern day dweebs drilling self gratifying masturbation holes into these sacred places...

Rock and Ice,  Number Forty, December 1990
VANDALS IN THE TEMPLE
by, Royal Robbins

Getting to the top is NOTHING.  The WAY you do it is everything.
Geoffery Winthrop Young

Think about that carefully...

To truly raise the the standards of free climbing, you can,t sacrifice  style or purity for a higher number.  These words were spoken in defense of Yosemite climbing tradition at the American Alpine Club meeting in Denver in 1986.  Since then, Ron Kauk, the MAN who uttered them, has become a leader in the SACRFICE of style and and purity in pursuit of higher numbers...  

Adam Tambone...    weaker still, in these MODERN TIMES these sacrifices aren,t made in the name of higher numbers, which almost seem noble and worthwhile compared to the reasons ‘climbers, justify drilling bolts into cliffs these modern days.  Instead today these same methods amount to dragging down difficult routes to mediocre consequences.  Where once the SACRIFICE of ETHICS by placing fixed gear, amounted to making IMPOSSIBLE routes within the grasp of the elite climbers, in these modern times, these same techniques have been implemented to DUMB DOWN entire cliff systems to within the grasp of everyone, whatever their psychological abilities.  I THINK I SMELL A RAT!

Royal Robbins,   Rap-Bolting is the method by which these bravos sacrifice style and purity--  never in the history of MOUNTAINEERING have we faced a more important problem.  Let me state the matter plainly--  we are talking about the DEATH of American rock climbing.

During the Golden Age of Alpinism, Geoffrey Winthrop Young defined and articulated a philosophy that has guided ALL of the great spirits of mountaineering.   It,s not getting to the top that counts, it,s the way you do it.  This philosophy was exemplified by Walter Bonatti,s five day solo ascent of the SouthWest Pillar of the Dru.  In contrast, Caesare Maestri,s  PERVERTED bolt-gun RAPE of Cerro Torre was a hollow triumph of EGO over all other values.

Now, I do not want to hear any further justification for drilling bolts, or pounding in pins to our defenseless and divine cliffs...  if you continue these false justifications, remember this, you are on the record, and the day will come when you will be ashamed of your selfish actions.  These cliffs soaked in the rain and sun long before your mother submitted to her primal urges giving rise to your existance...  don,t waste it, you only have one chance in this world.  

I assure you that climbing a route CLEANLY beneath your IDEAL climbing ability will be far more satisfying and enlightening than climbing a route by way of clipping bolts and fixed gear at your GYM climbing level.  Beginning climbers, more than anyone else should adhere to the clean climbing ethic in order to climb well in body and spirit, and also to be able to pass on this enlightenment to others gained through this practice.  

STOP clipping bolts!  Not only are you depriving yourself of the satisfaction of actually climbing, but you are also setting a WRONG standard for climbers in the future.

on the record
Adam Tambone
Portland, Maine
July 03, 2003
2:22a.m.
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bumpkin

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2003, 07:12:18 AM »

Hmmmm.... on the assumption that this is not a troll....

Adam, you are taking a pretty extreme position. Not the most extreme position possible, but pretty far. No doubt the "ideal" ascent is on-sight, solo, no climbing shoes or chalk, up a piece of rock that hasn't been cleaned, let alone bolted or hammered. But why should everyone have to be held to your ideals? My ideal ascent is the one that is most fun. Sometimes its fun to clip and go, up a climb like the Saigons. Sometimes its fun to have to dig deep in yourself to climb loose, unprotected, exposed rock with uncertain routefinding, like alpine climbs in the Canadian Rockies. But I would hardly be in shape to jump on more serious stuff if I hadn't logged many miles of safe, clean, rock. Leaving that aside, most people don't want to roll the dice every time they rope up. (Or is using a rope, which definetly makes climbing easier, not meeting the rock on its own terms?)

There is a question of resource management: the rock is finite, so any impacts our actions have on future uses is thus significant. This doesn't mean that we automatically have to forbid ourselves cleaning and placing fixed gear. It just means having respect. Respect for the resource, yes, but more importantly respect for other climbers and other climber's styles. There are lots of serious routes on Cathedral/Whitehorse, and respectfully, no-one is clamouring to bolt the hell out of Stage Fright. There are many casual routes as well, and respect should be extended to those users as well.

Having said all that, I am sympathetic to your (stated, but now in doubt) ambivalence about the disappearance of fixed pins, since I share your feeling that you should never charge up a piece of rock relying on the rumour of fixed pins, which are often of dubious quality. The Conway cliffs are, indeed, a bit of a junkyard. But most of the fixed gear in these cliffs is not obviously superfluous and I venture to say, that in the end, they remain one of the funnest places to climb anywhere.

Whatever, none of this is likely to convince anyone to change their opinions on anything. Hopefully, though, we might tone down the vitriol that seems to pervade all internet discussion forums... c'mon, man, did you really think you were going to change anyone's mind with that last post of yours, or just piss people off?
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2003, 07:32:52 AM »

true, my language was probably more conducive to pissing people off than persuading them not to place bolts, but why do i have to be all sweet when requesting people stop defacing the rock?  if someone is smashing up public property, i'm not going to be all polite about asking them to stop.  i'm not the agressor here, the person placing bolts is.

why should everyone adhere to the clean climbing ethic?  simple, because if they don't, if they rap-bolt, then they make the decision for everyone else that follows...  that is to say, once the holes are drilled, it's permanent.  they take away the choice for people to climb a clean cliff.  i don't think anyone has that right.

Al, you mentioned that you don't need those pins, so i ask this, why should they be there at all if you don't need them?  are they there to make the guides job easier?

a
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DH

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2003, 07:51:50 AM »

Changed my mind.  I was going to add a few more bolts to Molsons Madness but now I won't.  Seriously ATambone, I agree with your stance but I'm not that extreem in my opinion of keeping the cliffs clean since it is mostly used as a training ground for harder more pure routes, and it's too late they have been pounded and drilled and that's an irriversible process.  

In reading about the first climbs in NH in "Yankee Rock and Ice" which is well worth raeding by all NH climbers, those pioneers used barely anything for pro.  We are all wussies compared to those pre WWI adventurers who climbed up Willard and the Dacks w/out sticky rubber or any chalk and in tweed suites.  

I think it's healthy for the climbing community to have these conflicting views, we should keep the cliffs as they were a million years ago, but they arn't and never will be again so a happy medium is the best we can hope for so we all can have loads of fun then drink some beers after a frightingly good day on the NH granite.

Another thing is that the rock IS finite and there are more and more people wanting to get into rock climbing.  The safer the climbs are the more crowded they will  become at an almost exponential rate.  It may sound elitist but I'm with keeping the solitude and keeping the crouds at Rumney and the bouldering areas.  Lets keep the trad places a little more intimidating so that North Conway doesn't turn into a circus every day.  

I've introduced quite a few people to our sport but now take a more conservative approach  since the crowds are building. Overpopulation is inevitable and access is fragile. ATambones opinion, I think, is shared my a minority of climbers where it used to be the overwhelming majority.  I enjoyed his post. :)
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2003, 09:45:47 AM »

thanks DH, glad to hear about not adding more bolts.  perhaps you will inspire others to reconsider also.

i would recommend Yankee Rock and Ice as well.  i think it's important for climbers to have a sense of how the current state of climbing came to be, and I'm grateful to the authors for having written such an excellent book.   it's also worth noting that the Bowdoin College library has a complete collection of Appalachia.  If it's raining and you don't feel like aid climbing or drinking then you might be interested in reading about some of Henderson's and Underhill's early adventures directly from their pens, then spending a little time on the Maine coast.

Yes, the damage is done, and it can't be reversed, but it can be stopped.  More importantly, there is an abundance of climbing areas here in the U.S. and around the world that haven't been developed yet.  With climbing's popularity spreading like wildfire more and more areas will be developed and it's not too late for them, or is it?

A


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likes to clip safe bolts

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2003, 10:12:42 AM »

From the PERP,

Just a few thoughts about the pins which I took:

I only cleaned the anchor at the top Refuse.  Two Lost arrows and a blade.  There are three natural anchors on that ledge.  

The condition of the pins was suspect to me.  I am not some elite climber, but I have placed, fallen, cleaned, clipped many pins.

The pins were in terrible shape.  One of the angles was good with some cleaning and filing but the blade was completey rusted and less than 2mm thick most of the way.  It is obvious that these were here for some time.  Although I joke about using them, they are more booty than safety and I would hate to see someone take a death fall cause they relied on an ancient anchor.  

So call me a bastard, tell me you'll kick my ass, and beat my nuts through my nose, but in the end,  I did some good.  

Echo Roof was NOT my deal.  

As for replacing the pins - I replace sling anchors almost everytime I am out.  I have replaced and left fixed gear, including sets of heads on Mordor, a pin on Mines, New pins years back on top Mosons Madness.  So stop crying over your 8 dollars of rotted iron you had nothing to do with.

Relying on Fix Gear can Kill You!  

Who the fuck is Dogboy?  Sorry,  I don't sit around and talk shit on my weekend trips to Conway in IMCS, EMS, or MRS.  But if you know, give me a call and talk some trash to me personally.  

Some people in these chat rooms need to relax.  All it takes is a little trolling and the shit hits the fan.  Don't have a heart attack.
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2003, 11:03:46 AM »

well...  very, very interesting...  because if everything LTCSB just said is true, then I would really like to know what all the fuss was about, and why some people became so angry.  it sounds like he did a service and helped clean up Cathedral.  it sounds like what he did is part of the solution.  i'm very interested to hear what all the people who got so pissed off at those pins being removed will say now.

a
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DH

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2003, 11:31:26 AM »

Anyone ever go to the Gendarme climbing shop at the base of Seneca Rocks?  They have a great mini-museum with everything they have ever recovered from the Seneca Rocks.  There are tons of different relic pins there and crazy gear that people have made or bought in Russia and stuff.  Pretty interesting to see the evolution of climbing protection.  They also have a bunch to gear that failed, broken biners and cables and things I can't remember.  I don't think there is as much of an issue with pulling fixed gear there but this is probably because the rock there accepts a lot more pro and has more moderates.  Same goes for the Gunks.  

I guess fixed gear is noticed more in North Conway due to the runout nature of the rock.  I agree that old crappy pins in a spot with natural anchors (does that mean trees and chockstones?) probably should be taken out, I wouldn't do it personally cause I'm kind of a Lazy asshole and don't carry a hammer when I climb.    
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2003, 11:50:37 AM »

haven't been to that shop, but as i recall, most of the early climbing done at Seneca was done by Army Mountain Division soldiers training...  pounding in pins all day with muted hammers.  

The Boulder Mountaineer has a pretty nice collection of vintage gear also.
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DH

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2003, 12:26:45 PM »

Yeah it was the Army Mountain division, they must have put thousands of pins into Seneca sometimes in the 40's ( I'd rather take a fall onto a knotted sling).  One of the most awsome bits of rock in West Virginia is on Seneca, The face of a thousand pitons, and the name is almost an understatment.  I think many have been removed or fallen out but there are still tons left for booty.  At least there were about a year ago.  

I've never been to Boulder, maybe one day but it's not too high on my list of destinations right now.  
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2003, 12:49:20 PM »

speaking of the evolution of climbing gear...  perhaps others have seen this too, there was once a cover for Summit magazine that showed a cartoon chock smiling and standing on a frowning cartoon piton.  i guess it was meant to announce the victory of the clean climbing ethic.  little did they know that climbing gear would then DEVOLVE to expansion bolts.  we are not men.  we are devo.

a
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