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Author Topic: Update on missing pins  (Read 674 times)

ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2003, 01:35:33 PM »

Al, you were asking me if i ran out difficult routes because i refuse to clip bolts etc.  i'll tell you what i've told you before...  if i can't climb the route clean, then i won't climb it at all.  i'll walk away and go find a trad route i can do.  does this limit my options?  big time.  so what.  there's enough trad out there for me.  i'd rather be on some obscure lichen covered cliff anway, far from the crowds.

a
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om

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2003, 02:19:39 PM »

Adam, the main reason for my disappointment was not your point of view about fixed gear. The problem was that you were excusing the act of stealing using that high moral stance of yours. Stealing is stealing. You will only encourage it and compromise your point of view by supporting such acts. If there is a good case for removing some pins - please argue it and notify people of what was done and why. Besides, no one was talking about some fixed belay that was removed where other options were available. The talk was about creating a 30' runout on the beginners training route. That's a bit different.

As far as to the general issue of polluting rock and creating more and more of "safe" climbing... I can very much relate. I was pissed when Still in Saigon got bolted, I get aggravated every time I see a bolt where trad placement is available. But we live in a society where cars are made to penetrate houses without much damage to the driver, where kids aren't allowed to leave the house by themselves until they reach puberty... Responsibility is not one of the things people are willing to accept. Why does it surprise you that climbing community is changing too?
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2003, 03:02:07 PM »

om, let me try to respond to your points one at a time...

"The problem was that you were excusing the act of stealing using that high moral stance of yours. Stealing is stealing."

well, i'm not sure exactly what happened, but the way LTCSB describes it, he pulled bad pins, and others that were next to natural anchors.  is that stealing?  maybe...  not really sure what happened.  but like i asked Al, is it stealing pins if theoretically the pins are obvious to everyone to have been placed wrongly, or is it cleaning up the cliff?

"The talk was about creating a 30' runout on the beginners training route. That's a bit different."

well is it really a beginners route if there is a 30' runout?  is it right to pound in a pin to relieve the runout?  if that pin was the only gear available, and the pin and placement was in good condition, then i think it should have stayed.  the damage was already done.  but when it loosens up naturally, don't replace it.  let the cliff go back to a natural state.  extreme? i don't think so.  i think it's more extreme to pound the pin in to begin with.  what's so extreme about leaving a cliff alone?  that's called passive.

"Responsibility is not one of the things people are willing to accept. Why does it surprise you that climbing community is changing too?"

well if you are acknowledging a problem, then why excuse it, or say something like, that's just how it is?  that may be how it is, but i don't have to accept it, and i can try to change it.  also, i don't think it's logical to excuse one wrong with another.


okey doke..  i'm finally outta here.  have a good weekend everybody, and try to restrain yourselves if you plan on drilling holes into the rock.  go find some nice trad route to enjoy, and leave the cliff the way you found it. :)

a

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trekka

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2003, 10:45:47 PM »

   ;)
     to all the elders, you guys are acting childish about this if  you really think that cliping bolts and pitons is fun then what kind of climber are you sure an occassional bolt or fixxed anchor properly placed on a very scetchy face climb or at the end of a thin crack a couple pins b/c it would the best for the other wankers that are climbing but it would and should be only under certain conditions vairing it should all be decided among a large group of well manered old and bold climbers like Henry barber, or ed webster what about how they climbed the routes  they are tradionalist and we should all strive to treat the rock as well as it should be i agree with AT, likes to clip safe bolts and a few others but what i don't agree with is people just take there drills and hammers and just leaving fixed gear all over the place it is wrong, it is an eye swore i love to enjoy the beauty of the granite with out fixxed pitons and nuts or hexes or what about just eye swores in general there is an anchor to the left of the last pitch on recompense with fixed BD stoppers or on recomebeast first pitch yhere is a mangled stuck b/c someone couldn't take the time to learn about the gear they are placing so now after the time it as been there it is mangled  an such an eye sore  i am very dissapointed with the way some of the people are acting about the missing fixed gear but i am also pleased that people stil live by the "old code"  well  i have come to a conclusion  i think it would be in are best interest as climbers to clean up cathedral and whitehorse ledges b/c this is a privelage to climb this rock not a right we should appreaciate the rock. we should gather some people with the same views and talk to the first accentist of all the routes and see if they would respectfully have the same views.        

              well if you guys would please respond i would like to hear your views but one rule act with maners and politeness,    Trekka ::)
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dogboy

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2003, 08:29:08 AM »

Just a few points to clarify...I'm done with the argument.

1)  The pins were all in good shape before they were yanked...I checked them myself while climbing there at the beginning of this year and they were all solid.

2)  The pins were placed by a few very experienced climbers...who are very unlikely to place sketchy fixed gear and then leave it in place.

3)  Only the middle pin has any natural gear available near it, and only then in a severely flaring crack...you might get a body weight placement there, but I do not think anything placed in the crack would take a leader fall...
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Admin Al

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2003, 10:57:45 AM »

"i am also pleased that people stil live by the "old code"

I don't get this... what does this mean, old code. this discussion is getting off track. it started about the fact that some doofus STOLE pins that were placed in locations where there was no available natural protection. any way you cut it, this is THEFT - pure and simple. all of the ensuing conversation about bolts and ruining the cliff and the like is bogus as far as this topic goes. couple that with the fact that people have been placing pins to climb routes for 100+ years, and the above comment makes no sense.

I would also beware of tossing the names of Henry Barber and Ed Webster around in the same breath on this topic as they have VERY different views on the topic. Henry dislikes bolts & wants there to be only natural pro anywhere. Ed has no problem with using bolts when he deems it necessary and in fact has no issue with his going back and modifying the climbs he put up to make them safer. be sure that you know of what you speak...

look, if someone wants to start a topic on Bolts or No Bolts and rant about the condition of the cliff, that would make sense and I heartily encourage you to do so. in point of fact there will be a meeting in North Conway on a Saturday evening in September which will be open to all and which will seek to address this issue as it relates to climbing in the Mt. Washington Valley. Of course I will be sure to post the time and location so that any interested parties can come and participate.

I also suggest that if you really want to do something to help the cliff, show up for the Cliff Cleanup Day next week. all this talk is cheap, put your personal time & effort to better use and actually DO SOMETHING POSITIVE!

<sigh>

Al
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2003, 12:15:27 PM »

did anyone else notice that trekka's reply was a SINGLE sentence?  wow!

yes, off track.

one last off track opinion though...  Al, yes, pins have been used forever but that doesn't make it right.  clean climbing can make them obsolete.  i say, unless you're doing some 'out there' alpine climbing, leave the pitons at home.

A
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Erik N

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2003, 01:13:39 PM »

Atambone
It's interesting to note that pins were originally left in place to promote clean climbing.  Since the removal and placing of pins damaged the rock the thought was to leave the necessary ones in place and that is in many places what we have today.
  Good for you for being such a purist however, as another thread shows your options are very limited to find a route with no bolts, pins, scars, webbing or at the very least removal of vegetation.  It almost makes your argument invalid.
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2003, 01:27:22 PM »

Erik, no argument here about the pins.  I agree with you.  Like I said, if the pins were well placed, in good condition, then they should have stayed.  Yeah ideally, i would like to have no pins, and if used only in rare circumstances i really don't have an issue with it.

As far as my arguments being invalid because i (for the most part) limit myself to clean trad climbing... well, i'm not sure what you mean by that.  

A
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ed esmond

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2003, 10:58:28 PM »

adam t,

well... one thing is certain from your posts, you are "simplistic."

you ask the people who "drill bolts and place pins, is there any guilt at all while you are defacing the rock?"

i just have to as: do you fele any "guilt" when you eat food which was once a living creature?  do you feel any "guilt" when you read the morning newspaper (printed on dead trees)? do you feel any "guilt" when you drive to a clff on a road made of crushed gravel from a drilled and dynamited quarry?

do you think the lichen that secretes an acidic solution from it's holdfast feel any 'guilt" because it's degrading the rock on which it lives?  do you think the pine tree that sends it's root into a crack (originally made by a lichen) feels "guilty?"  does the rain feel "guilt" because it erodes the rock and soil?

all of nature's creatures modify thier environment...do you presume to think that man is somehow above nature?

you've quoted royal robbins as a justification for your position...  well, i own a bosch drill (and i'm not afraid to use it...) and by my last count; your sacred royal robbins has drilled more bolt holes than i could even concieve of.....

so, i guess it's ok for some people to drill bolts and place pins, but not others....  (that's why i really like climbing...it's soooo frigging elistist....)

(just for the record, the "ethical" royal robbins chopped warren hardinding's "dawn wall" just because he was jealous of hardings success and fame.  (when examined in that light, your god, royal doesn't look so good, does he?)

the realitiy is that n conway has alway had an extremely "ego-driven" sense of ethics.  the way it worked in the past was: if i (and my ego) decided that a route needed a pin or a bolt, it was ok... BUT, if somebody else thought a route need a bolt or a pin... it was an ethical outrage.

i'm glad to see that things in n conway haven't changed.

ed 'the traditionalist' esmond

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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2003, 06:22:33 AM »

Ed,  replying to your points one at a time...

"well... one thing is certain from your posts, you are "simplistic." "

simple, maybe, but i think it's more complicated to climb clean trad though.  rap bolting is simplistic, and simple minded.

"just have to as: do you fele any "guilt" when you eat food which was once a living creature?  do you feel any "guilt" when you read the morning newspaper (printed on dead trees)? do you feel any "guilt" when you drive to a clff on a road made of crushed gravel from a drilled and dynamited quarry?"

i'm a vegetarian...  i recycle almost all my paper...  and i think society should try to have a less adversarial relationship with the Earth, including new ways to construct roads, homes, buildings, etc.  buckminster fuller had some good ideas in this area.  i'm certainly not perfect...  just doing what i can.  and like i keep on saying, one wrong does not justify another.

"do you think the lichen that secretes an acidic solution from it's holdfast feel any 'guilt" because it's degrading the rock on which it lives?  do you think the pine tree that sends it's root into a crack (originally made by a lichen) feels "guilty?"  does the rain feel "guilt" because it erodes the rock and soil?"

so, you think it's ok to rap bolt since you believe it falls into the paradigm of nature's cycle of erosion and regeneration?  that's just crazy talk.

"you've quoted royal robbins as a justification for your position...  well, i own a bosch drill (and i'm not afraid to use it...) and by my last count; your sacred royal robbins has drilled more bolt holes than i could even concieve of..... "

really?  perhaps on lead, by hand...  but rap bolting?  i don't think so.

"(that's why i really like climbing...it's soooo frigging elistist....)"

perhaps my request to climbers to stop rap bolting sounds elitist to you because you are hearing someone tell you that what you love to do is actually wrong.  i assure you that i am not an elitist.  your just simply wrong.

A





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DH

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2003, 07:06:26 AM »

Ooooo, this bolting war is getting really good.  I thought they were all over with in the 70's and 80's.  
Fact is though, bolts are going to happen.  One can only hope that they are kept to a minimum, and camoflaged and done well.  No bolts where gear is possible, blah blah blah.  Bolted anchors protect the trees that grow on cliffs, this is definatly a good idea since those cliff dwelling trees are cool and should be left alone and not rapped off 10 times a day.  

As much as we'd like the cliffs to remain pristine, they won't, so all we can do is maintain the routes in the shape they are in today.  New England has always been thought of as a training ground for the bigger mountians.  To some, North Conway is the 'mountains' and we need those runout routes and scary leads but also places like Rumney where we can figure out just what we are capable of.  New england is a cool place with tons of fun climbing and great rock, the history is really colorfull too and it's good to see that the energy is still very high despite the fact that nearly everything has been climbed.    
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Hits from the Gravity

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2003, 11:26:41 AM »

Dearest Trekka,

Where the fuck did you school?

Here is short list of spelling errors:

fixxed
manered
eye swore
appreaciate
accentist
cliping
occassional
maners
recomebeast

and what the fuck is, "vairing"

Aside from the lack of spelling, punctuation, and capitols; you have single handedly slaughter this thread.  At no time during your incoherent, sensless, bable, did you come anywhere remotely close to a rational response or origional idea on the subject.  

Everyone on this Website is now Dumber for reading your remarks.

PS Next time you want to defend your cause in an internet chat room, make sure you have spell-check ready, grammar checker, and please, for god's sake - buy a fucking dictionary!

PSS  Please respond with a  list of routes or fixed gear you have ruined, chopped, or erased.  

PSSS Please list all fixed gear you have placed so that I may be safe and not clip it.

PSSSS  Lieks to Clip Safe Botls Rulezzzzzzzzz


 :P
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Travis Zuber

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2003, 12:15:20 PM »

If you deem yourself worthy of correcting the writing of others, take a long look at your own work.  P.S. is short for post script.  Therefore PSS would be, I assume, post script script?.. Right.
Regardless, this is a climbing forum and spelling is of little
consequence.
More to the point, if you can't climb a 30 foot runout, make no mistake, someone can.  Also, that someone gets a perverse pleasure from that thrill, don't take that away from them.
Fixed pro and bolts have there place, but, I myself don't believe it is to shorten runouts on trad (remember that means traditional) routes.
I apoligize if I misspelled something, I did'nt go to school.

T
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dogboy

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2003, 12:50:38 PM »

Read the entire thread, please.  There's a 30' runout because a pin that was part of the original route was stolen...and the person who stole it damaged the flake behind which it was placed, making it impossible to replace.

Just as it is unethical to retrobolt, without permission, climbs in order to make them safer, it is unethical (and irresponsible) to remove established fixed gear from climbs for whatever reason...and that is what this thread was originally about.
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