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Author Topic: Update on missing pins  (Read 668 times)

seank

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2003, 01:52:46 PM »

Those who live in glass houses...

1. sensless - senseless
2. bable - babble
3. origional - original
4. slaughter - slaughtered (grammar)
5. Website - (w)
6. Dumber - (d)
7. god's (G)

I'm not perfect either but I couldn't resist.
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2003, 02:08:05 PM »

pins behind flakes, yikes!  hmmm...  did ripping the pin out damage the flake or did pounding the pin in and leaving it there for years help pry the flake.  don't know, just wondering out loud.  if pulling the pin damaged the flake, i wonder what a fall would have done?  if pulling the pin damaged the flake, was it really a good placement?

dogboy said, "it is unethical (and irresponsible) to remove established fixed gear from climbs for whatever reason..."

that's just your opinion.  as long as we are speaking in general terms, perhaps it is unethical to place fixed gear to begin with, such that removing it rights a wrong.

a
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Admin Al

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2003, 02:41:36 PM »

Travis,

"More to the point, if you can't climb a 30 foot runout, make no mistake, someone can. ÊAlso, that someone gets a perverse pleasure from that thrill, don't take that away from them.
Fixed pro and bolts have there place, but, I myself don't believe it is to shorten runouts on trad (remember that means traditional) routes."

lord have mercy... if YOU can't climb a 60 foot vertical finger crack MAKE NO MISTAKE, someone can! "someone" can climb Repentance without using the pins, or any gear for that matter and  that's a traditional route, but that's not the point.

the point is that a fellow climber put in a route at the Echo Roof area. they placed some pins for protection as a part of the route, just as Turner did on Repentance and Henry Barber did on some of his climbs. then, several years later, someone else came along and STOLE those pins. they weren't making a statement. they weren't anti-bolting fanatics like Ken Nichols. they simply wanted some fairly new pins to use for something that they were going to do somewhere else and they were simply too cheap to buy them. so, they stole them from an existing route that in fact was pretty nice and served a real need, which is more moderate routes for the climbing community.

let's get real here...

al
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Al Hospers
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yawn

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2003, 03:07:07 PM »

Tambone:

Please, take it off the air. You are boring. You're also young and too inexperienced to realized that your idealism is not grounded in climbing reality. If you actually climbed instead of hovering over your computer like a crack addict you might begin to realize this. If you last in this climbing world and actually gain some practical experience you will pray for forgiveness for your stupidity and hope the rest of us have short memories of your past words.

You're book smart but not street smart, and a good trad climber this does not make. Your career will be limited to tiny cliffs, short lines, and finally a deep crater in the ground after your idealized climb turns into a groundfall of nightmarish proportions.

Please, for the sake of the community (or what little of it there is...), please stop.  P1 of Reppys is waiting for your idealized hands and feet. Throw yourself off at the top when your done, there's fixed gear at the belay. Amen!

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Ben U.

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2003, 03:14:29 PM »

Hits from the gravity,

Thank you for your valuable input into this delicate subject.

You ask where ("the f**k") Trekka went to school... I don't know who Trekka is but by reading his (or her) post I get the feeling that english is not his (her?) first language.  Next time why not show a little compassion and let it slide rather than try to humiliate someone who is struggling with a new language.

Or better yet, if you don't have anything relevant or intelligent to add to a post, why don't you keep your crass, barely literate replies to yourself.

And yes, I'm aware of the irony in the fact that my post has nothing to do with the topic either...


"You're dumb, and you're an ass... You're a dumbass!" - Red, from That 70's Show.
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dogboy

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2003, 03:19:21 PM »

Ah yes, A...it's just my opinion.  But my opinion doesn't put people's lives needlessly at risk, while yours very well might.  Your entitled to your opinion...but please, confine yourself to putting up clean, fixed-gear-free routes, and refrain from removing good fixed gear from established climbs...that is not your decision to make, and neither you nor anyone else (with the exception perhaps of the FA party) has the right to decide for others that fixed gear should be removed.

P.S. If the person who stole the pins from under Echo did so for ethical reasons, the VERY LEAST they could have done was notify the community, through this board, IME, etc., that the gear was gone...something that they did not do.  Inexcusable.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2003, 03:44:02 PM by jeffc »
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ATambone

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2003, 03:24:21 PM »

yeah Al,  let's get real here,

you said, "...an existing route that in fact was pretty nice and served a real need, which is more moderate routes for the climbing community..."

well, if there is a shortage of moderate routes, then so be it.  speaking generally, people shouldn't be making hard routes (hard because of runouts) moderate by placing fixed gear.  A well placed pin once in a while, fine, but your statement seems to give blanket approval to make any route moderate by sewing them up with bolts and pins, just so there are more moderate routes in the library.  that's total BS.  if there is a shortage of moderate routes, let's get real about it, there is a shortage of moderate routes.  this isn't disneyworld, where everything has to be made accessible to everyone.  if the moderate climber (like myself) looks hard enough, there is plenty to do.

also, be careful who you call a fanatic.  perhaps purist is the word you were groping for, or perhaps you view purists as fanatics.  was teddy roosevelt a fanatic when he started setting aside our most beautiful lands as national parks to be preserved in their pristine and wild state?  some thought so.  maybe you would have been one of them.  the purist philosophy has helped preserve these special places so that future generations can have the wilderness experience too.  what are these cliffs going be like a few generations from now?  at this rate of bolting, it's not going to be pretty, and your advocacy of bolting isn't helping.  you even featured a full length article describing to everyone how to do it.  i know you wanted to stop the especially bad bolting practices, but in the end, all you did was encourage more bolting in general, which is good news for some, bad news for others.

a

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DH

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2003, 04:03:52 PM »

Now now, I think posting a 'how to bolt the right way' is a good idea.  Sort of like giving clean needles to heroin addicts.  If someone is gonna bolt a peice of rock, no ones' ethics will stop that.  Letting people know how to do a good job of it and keeping it camoflaged is a good idea.  Don't knock that.

Conversely, I don't know why so many people are mad that there are 'purists' out there??  It's necessary for the community that there are those who would leave the rock as it is.  Just try to think about what the cliffs will look like in  a 100 years.  Old ethics of no bolts are important to keep the cliffs from being grid bolted.    
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ATambone is outta here

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2003, 04:34:39 PM »

Yawn, very clever, and funny too.  But your wrong.  I've been climbing for fourteen years, and in that time I've had my fair share of epics, and unexpected runouts, some of which almost made me pee myself.  I'm replying to your personal attack for this one reason...  despite all the fear I have experienced, I have never moderated my views, and I'm certainly not ashamed of them.  There were times when I said, 'OK, I'm never going up there again', but never did I say, 'OK, next time I'm rap bolting it first'.    

You're right about one thing, it's time for me to take it offline.   Enough is enough.

DH, thanks for acknowledging that there is a place for those climbers who prefer the cliffs be allowed to remain natural.

A
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Admin Al

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2003, 07:33:37 PM »

"but your statement seems to give blanket approval to make any route moderate by sewing them up with bolts and pins, just so there are more moderate routes in the library. Êthat's total BS."

that's hardly what I said - explicitly or implicitly...

that said, just because something is 100 feet of 5.6 friction climbing doesn't mean that it has to be rated X. if a couple of pins, or even bolts, makes it accessible then I say do it if you are putting up the route and you want to. if AT had his way there would be far fewer routes on the Whitehorse slabs. in my opinion that would be a loss, not a gain.

and hey, Dani Gelinas and I put up a new route on Humphrey's today that's probably 5.9 and is all natural gear. I was fully prepared to out in a pin if it was necessary, but it turns out that it wasn't needed. that said we also cleaned another one. 5.10C, that will need a bolt to make it safe. and I have absolutely no problem in breaking out the hand drill & doing the do.

and by the way AT, there is certainly a place for your opinion, as well as, DH's, as well as Dogboy's, as well as mine. I think it's pretty hard to imply that I don't foster exchange and communication on all of these issues. hey, I provide the forum (pun intended) where everyone has the opportunity to express their opinion - as opposite as those opinions may be.

cheers,

al
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Al Hospers
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travis

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2003, 12:14:56 PM »

Al,
I respect your opinion and I appreciate that you champion for moderate routes... that said, if I can't climb a 60' vertical fingercrack in good style (regardless of whether I'm the first to do it), you won't see me pounding pins.
When I travel to other areas, I speak proudly of New Hampshire as a bastion for traditional ethics.  My concern is that climbers in search of first ascents and armed with the notion that the first ascentionist has the right to bolt or place fixed gear freely are going to become so prolific that Cathedral will end up like El Cap.  
As climbers we must all adhere to our own code of conduct, but please remember to think twice if you can't climb your route without damaging the rock.  The holes you drill are permanent and your ego will heel much faster.
T  
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otis ho

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2003, 02:07:02 PM »

 The only name you can make for your self in climbing today is a bad one.
Michael Hartrick  circa 1982
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Cool like A

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Re: Update on missing pins
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2003, 09:16:22 PM »

Dear A, Should I solo and steal the many pins that make clean ascents of the Prow posible? Sure, then aid climbers will bust out the hammers, but thats cool because all the bomber nut placements were created by peg bashers anyway, and I think that sucks 'cuz I'm a run-it-out,piss-my-pants,risk-my-neck,tell-ya-'bout-it-later kinda guy.
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