Author Topic: Ownership and Access  (Read 295 times)

Offline rpdoucette

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Ownership and Access
« on: August 06, 2003, 07:58:46 AM »
Reading the recent discussion of bolting at Cathedral reminded me of a pet peeve of mine.  A lot of climbers have no friggin idea who owns the land on which they climb.  If you havent noticed, land ownership is a big deal in this country.  Knowing who the landowner is, and what the rules are, can have a direct impact on your (our) continued access to the cliffs.

So I thought I would post a little quiz.  If you climb at any/all of these 10 areas, do you know who owns the land:
Rumney, NH
Pawtuckaway, NH
Otter Cliffs, Maine
Katahdin, Maine
Crow Hill, MA
College Rock, MA
Rose Ledge, MA
Quincy Quarries, MA
Gunks, NY
Smugglers Notch, VT

If you have a favorite climbing area...dont know who owns the land...have never spoken to the owner/manager...dont know what the rules are...or the future plans for the area...maybe that's not good.  Just something to think about.  A free beverage to the first person to gets them all correct.

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2003, 08:51:50 AM »
great one Richard. I know a few, I think...

Otter Cliffs, Maine - State of Maine
Katahdin, Maine - State of Maine
Crow Hill, MA - State of Mass.
Rose Ledge, MA - company who owns the electric plant
Quincy Quarries, MA - City of Boston
Gunks, NY - Mohonk organization

here's another one...

Cathedral Ledge
Whitehorse Ledge
Evans Notch
Sandwich Notch


al
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Offline t-rad

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2003, 08:55:52 AM »
since otter is part of acadia, isn't the answer NPS/Fed Gov instead of st of me?

pawtuckaway is a state park, so i assume st of nh.


Offline rpdoucette

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2003, 08:58:32 AM »
Nice try Admin Al.  No beverage for you.

Otter Cliffs, Maine - State of Maine - incorrect

Rose Ledge, MA - company who owns the electric plant - partially correct

Quincy Quarries, MA - City of Boston - way incorrect

T-Rad is correct on his/hers.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 09:00:23 AM by rpdoucette »

timk

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2003, 09:23:51 AM »
Cathedral is a good one because I believe that the cliff and the top of the cliff are owned by two different towns...hence the reason the top of the cliff never gets patroled by 5.0?

Offline rpdoucette

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2003, 10:06:55 AM »
NH is funky. Almost all of the public land there is National Forest, except the places where the tourists would go. The state kept that for themselves, so there are State Parks on various summits (and other isolated pockets) insite the national forest.  This includes parts of Cathedral and Whitehorse (Echo Lake State Park), the summit of Mt Washington, and parts of Crawford Notch and Franconia Notch.

If I am not mistaken, when climbing at Cathedral and Whitehorse, you might park on Federal Land, but most of the approach and the climb is on state park land.  Some of the approaches to Whitehorse are over private land.

Offline cguertin

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2003, 11:04:24 AM »

(?)-means there is some uncertainty, have never been there or been there less than 3 times
Rumney, NH-National Forest Land(?)-Gov't
Pawtuckaway, NH-State Park-State of NH
Otter Cliffs, Maine-National Park-Gov't
Katahdin, Maine-Baxter State Park-State of Maine
Crow Hill, MA-Leominster State Forest-State of MA
College Rock, MA(?)-Town of (whichever town it is in)
Rose Ledge, MA-Designated Recreation area-Northeast Utilities
Quincy Quarries, MA(?)-Quarry Company or Rock Company
Gunks, NY-Mohonk Preserve-Mohonk Trust(?)
Smugglers Notch, VT-State Park-State of VT

How'd I do??

Danny Webster

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2003, 11:36:40 AM »
Just to be picky it should be pointed out that while Baxter State Park is operated under the Maine State Park name it is actually administered separately under a trust set up by Percival P. Baxter (governor of Maine 1921-1925).

Offline rpdoucette

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2003, 12:45:39 PM »
Cguertin and Dwebster are on the right track.
Quincy Quarries is incorrect.
Rose Ledge is very close.
Correct about Baxter State Park also.  Extra credit for that one.  See: http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/

David Stowe

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2003, 12:54:04 PM »
Gunks landownership is not so simple as just the Mohonk Preserve.

The Preserve owns the Trapps, Near Traps, Bayards, Lost City, parts of Millbrook, Bonticou, Copes Lookout, Giants Workshop and several other crags.

The Mohonk Mountainhouse owns Skytop, probably the best crag at the Gunks which is unfortunately closed to climbing.

New York State owns Peterskill, Minnewaska, part of Millbrook and some other crags.

The Nature Conservacy owns Ice Caves Mountain and some other small crags and does not permit climbing.  

And yet other crags are owned or partially owned by private landowners.

Land ownership in the Gunks is a tricky issue and one that is constantly causing problems as is the case with both Skytop and the currently proposed Ridge developement project.

Offline rpdoucette

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2003, 01:24:09 PM »
Correct Mr. Stowe.  While the masses only think of trapps/nears/maybe millbrook, there are other cliffs/crags/boulders right down the street.  Currently State land is open to climbing, as far as I know, while the private (non mohonk preserve inc.) land is not.

Erik N

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2003, 05:24:25 PM »
Cathedral and Whitehorse as far as climbing is concerned  is in Echo Lake State Park. However, the Cathedral Ledge road goes through various parcels of private land and abuts National Forest.  The top part of the road (past the gate) is patrolled by Bartlett police and the bottom is Conway police.
 
Who cares who owns what.  The same rules apply every where:
1.  Seek permission unless it's obvious.
2.  Leave the place the way you found it or better.
3.  Be discrete.  Don't make a scene.
4.  Don't be an idiot.
5.  Obey local rules
6. I'm sure I'm missing something but you get the idea.

Wyo

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2003, 06:36:58 PM »
Jeez, guys, just go climbing!

Offline Joe

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2003, 08:22:10 PM »
Here are a few more details:

1. Quincy Quarries is owned by the state of Massachusetts.  The Quincy Quarries Reservation is part of the Blue Hills Reservation, which is under the Division of Urban Parks and Recreation of the Department of Conservation and Recreation (formerly Metropolitan District Commission). (www.state.ma.us/mdc/quincyq.htm)

2. College Rock is owned by the Town of Hopkinton, MA (http://www.hopkinton.org/government/conservation/college.htm).

3. Rose Ledge is on Northfield Mountain, which is a pumped storage hydroelectric facility owned and operated by Northeast Utilities (http://www.nu.com/northfield/default.asp).

Joe

ed esmond

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Re: Ownership and Access
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2003, 11:18:32 PM »
"joe" wrote: "Rose Ledge is on Northfield Mountain, which is a pumped storage hydroelectric facility owned and operated by Northeast Utilities"  

"rpdoucette" wrote "Rose Ledge is very close. "

"Very close" to what? Gill?

The last time I asked "them" about the area, the kind folks at Northfield Mtn  insisted that they, in fact, did own the property.  They also own about 1/3 of the cliff and some of the boulders at Farley.  

They operate the pump storage facility with a legal mandate to provide "recreation" on the property.  This deeded mandate is the reason that they allow climbing (and hiking, mtn biking, x-c skiing, etc) there.  Other former NU properties don't have this leagal protection; and access for climbing is tenious....

NU did some serious "land swapping" with the State of MA to aquire the property when they were aquireing land to built the facility.  As part of the operating agreement, they are legally bound to provide "recreation."

I'd bet if you asked the "owners" of the property what their attitude about bolts are: they's say... we won't ask, if you don't tell...

ed esmond

ps. Timmy K. nice job on cannon. i'm glad your dad was there.....