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[Admin Al]

for a long time I used to tie knots in the end of both ropes before I would rap when I wasn't sure about where I was going. I quit doing it a couple of years ago when a number of people that I respect told me that it wasn't such a good idea. the knots could get caught on stuff, it was too easy to leave one in the end of a rope then you pulled them, etc. Maury mentioned it again the other nite when we were rapping down Whitehorse looking for the folks who got benighted. if you have a safety on the rope, or better yet a Petzl Shunt, you have an amazing amount of control so I don't think it would matter.

comments?

Al  

[t-rad]

i suppose it depends on the situation.  i'll usually tie some knots at the ends for circumstances like rapping in the dark, rapping into unknown territory, rapping with two ropes of different diameters (one line slips through the rap device more easily/quickly), and rapping where there might be loose rock over me.  i've read of many instances (ANAM) where experienced climbers rapped off the end of their lines, usually where one line went through the rap device more quickly than the other line and the climber unexpectedly reached the end prematurely.  spooky.  for me, i'd rather tie the knots and be very careful about not pulling the lines with the knots still there, and just cope with any tangles that might develop.  so many things can go wrong while rapping.

[steven cooney]

Once you watch a good, experienced climber rap off the ends of their rope, you will be convinced that closing the system is a smart idea for many situations.  Of course,some instances don't warrant it.  If you are worried about a snag, knot the ends and clip them to your harness.  Too many preventable accidents happen with belays and rappels that are easily prevented by closing the system.

[fcm]

"Once you watch a good, experienced climber rap off the ends of their rope, you will be convinced that closing the system is a smart idea for many situations."

I'm curious how many "good experienced climbers" you have seen do this? I've never even seen a bad, inexperienced climber do it and I've been watching for twenty years. Is there an epidemic I am missing!?!

[steven cooney]

Im just curious.  Are you an asshole or can you not understand the value behind relating a single incident that I witnessed.  I did not say hordes I said "a".  YOur not missing an epidemic just clouding the issue by being a wise ass.
Many people have stories about people with years of experience not closing the system and dying from it.  Ask Ali Rainey or Jim Logan.  Ask Romain Vogler.  Wait a second, you can't ask Romain, he's dead.

[tkemple]

Im just curious.  Are you an asshole or can you not understand the value behind relating a single incident that I witnessed.  I did not say hordes I said "a".  YOur not missing an epidemic just clouding the issue by being a wise ass.
Many people have stories about people with years of experience not closing the system and dying from it.  Ask Ali Rainey or Jim Logan.  Ask Romain Vogler.  Wait a second, you can't ask Romain, he's dead.

I thought Ali got LOWERED off the end of her rope sport climbing...

[steven cooney]

Ali was belaying a route from a terrace and lowered her boyfriend past her position to the ground not realizing the rope would pass through her belay.  The ground was 20 to 40 feet below.  She had been climbing for years.  She had lots of experience.  She made a mistake.  Anyhow, there is a value to closing the system while employing a friction device to rappel or lower a climber.  Of course there are pros and cons and times that don't warrant it.  

[vtrocker]

I never used to tie a backup knot while rappelling. Now I do whenever I don't know where Im rapping to. Although its not exactly fool/idiot/moron proof. A few months ago my partner and I were down at the Gunks, heading over to do Arrow and just before we arived at the climb some lady had rappelled of the end of her rope. the sad thing was that she had untied her backup knot and then proceded to rap of the end thinking she would make it to the ground. She took an 8 foot fall and had to be rescued by the rangers and fellow climbers.  

[bge]

I agree that a safety like a back-up knot, Shunt or the like is important, but I figure look at your individual situation - on WH, where the raps can be long, and the rock is (relatively) low profile (re. rope snags not as much an issue), tying the ends is a nice way to ease your mind and let you focus on the views.

'Course, then again, I've gotten my rope stuck overnight after getting all the way down to the Landing Pad because i DIDN'T untie an end, so I'm not a very good example...   Maybe BOTH ends tied together would be wiser for me next time, eh?

[drb1215]

The use of something like a petzl shunt is great as a brake, but it doesn't do a thing for you if the end of the rope slips through it.  If you are worried about the ropes getting hung up, the suggestion of tying knots in them and clipping the ends to your harness is a good idea.  I think that a little extra rope managment on the way down, is a small price to pay for stopping the potential of zipping off of the end.  But then again, that's just me.

Dan

[Ollie]

Knots are a good Idea, if you get it stuck on the way down you'll get to the snag before you you finish the rap.

There's a really cool article about rappelling in Rock&Ice #128
October issue.

Live to climb another day!  

[DLottmann]

IMHO it depends on the situation.  As long as you have a good reason to put knots in the end of your rope, or not to knot... hmmm... you are doing O.K.  Rappelling unknown terrain, darkness, rain, tired, could all be good reasons to knot the ropes.  If you can see the ends hit the ground or a big ledge, or are familair with the route, have a need for haste, can all be reasons not to knot...  Just make whether to knot or not a conscious decision, and you probably won't be rapping off your ropes anytime soon.

[Ollie]

 If you can see the ends hit the ground or a big ledge, or are familair with the route, have a need for haste, can all be reasons not to knot...  

Reasons yes, but not very good. Murphy's law applies here too.
Assume that the very thing that makes you want to wear a helmet, the falling block, flying beer bottle, fist size stone , #4 cam or anything else on a colision course with your noggin, hits you and only startles you, how far would you have to travel down that rope and for how long before the rope becomes impossible to grab? if you are not knocked out, that is...
Unless you are using an auto block system, tied or mechanical, those knots are just about the only thing that could save your scorny butt from a free fall.
The big ledge is now a very unfriendly trampoline, just something to bounce off... the familiar route develops an unfriendly aspect.
This argument is about the same as asking why a back up knot on, belay, assending or any time you put some mechanical device in between you and the rope...wait are the knots at the botom of the rope not called "back ups"?
If in the past these knots have save but one life, wouldn't it be safe to say that in the future they would do the same?
So how long does it take to tie a couple of knots? 2, 3 minutes? Assuming that you didn't "use" them how hard will they be to untie?
Life is good...keep using back ups...make life Gooder!

[tradmanclimbz]

Only tie them if can't see were I am going, not sure were the next station etc. Never on rts I am familiar with unless the rap is funky for some reason.  never in high wind. Mind telling me how you are going to deal with it if you are rapping a tower in 60mph wind and the ropes are flying straight out and get stuck 30 or 40 meters to the side of your rt? If you tie them both in a knot it realy twists the crap out of them. I much prefer to pay attention to what I am doing and use an auto block for funky terrain. I will tie the knot though if it looks like a reach to the anchors or I can't see them. Over the last 20 years of climbing I have had countless hassels with too many knotts in the rope and never a hassel with too few. Hopefully if I focus on the task at hand I will keep it that way

[DLottmann]

Reasons yes, but not very good. Murphy's law applies here too.
Assume that the very thing that makes you want to wear a helmet, the falling block, flying beer bottle, fist size stone , #4 cam or anything else on a colision course with your noggin, hits you and only startles you, how far would you have to travel down that rope and for how long before the rope becomes impossible to grab? if you are not knocked out, that is...

These are great reasons to use a back-up for your brake hand, like a friction knot or Shunt.  How many people tie knots in their rope, but DON'T use a back-up like these?  If you ask me it is more important to back up the brake hand, then tie knots in the end of your rope.  Personally I almost a fricton knot placed below the rappel device.  I have almost been struck by a beer bottle rappeling Saigon and a direct hit would have caused be to lose control.  Knots in the end of a rope that reaches the ground, or a big ledge, do next to nothing to protect you.  On big walls with long steep rappels I might tie knots more often, but around here there are just not to many places I think they will save you... Just my opinion.