Author Topic: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington  (Read 657 times)

Offline sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 11:59:38 AM »
At the end of the day, one has to take responsibility for one's own safety and the safety of one's loved ones and partner(s).  All "heuristics" aside.
Perhaps it is a generational thing.  I know plenty of "sport climbers" who share this attitude, granted all these people are over 45 years old.
So, I think your analysis is likely over simplistic and single dimensional, Champ.  Like they often are.  And overgeneralized based on insufficient sample size.
As exemplified by this statement below -
"In one ethic, you rely on heuristic to save your life and in the other heuristic will kill you. That is the major difference between the two ethic."


"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1564
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 05:15:45 PM »
As exemplified by this statement below -
"In one ethic, you rely on heuristic to save your life and in the other heuristic will kill you. That is the major difference between the two ethic."

the example show that for sport climber, the avy post is a good think because some people take the decision for them that it is safe or not.

the example show that if you want adventure /trad situation, with women too but climbing adventure, you don't need an avy post because you will decide with the information that you have, and it could be from the  people who write the avy post, to stay safe.

The level of knowledge of "what if" is higher in trad, but the performance is higher in sport. So, it is an equilibrium where each ethic as is importance if you can choose between them.

Unfortunately, people who rely on heuristic think that they are the example of safety that every body most follow...and a lot of knowledge is lost because you have to be in the field to test your knowledge and all the situation where you can do that safely, particularly with a guide, are remove. Some guide now teach heuristic and are less in danger than there client. As a guide, if I bring you in spot where avalanche can occur, I took two risk I have an accident and my client was scare and I lost my clients. If I gave a safe course with heuristic,  the student didn't have to decide what is dangerous and when they are in a situation where it can be, they just don't take decision. 

Offline sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 06:39:34 PM »
To be frank, if I have to choose, I will take the avy report over your (perhaps better) judgment, LL.  This based on what you have posted here on this Forum!
Not heuristics fitting a "sport climber" but a conclusion I arrived at after the reading of many of your posts.  Cotton T-shirt.  Ah-ha.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline DaveR

  • NEClimbs Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 07:48:48 PM »
As exemplified by this statement below -
"In one ethic, you rely on heuristic to save your life and in the other heuristic will kill you. That is the major difference between the two ethic."

the example show that for sport climber, the avy post is a good think because some people take the decision for them that it is safe or not.

the example show that if you want adventure /trad situation, with women too but climbing adventure, you don't need an avy post because you will decide with the information that you have, and it could be from the  people who write the avy post, to stay safe.

The level of knowledge of "what if" is higher in trad, but the performance is higher in sport. So, it is an equilibrium where each ethic as is importance if you can choose between them.

Unfortunately, people who rely on heuristic think that they are the example of safety that every body most follow...and a lot of knowledge is lost because you have to be in the field to test your knowledge and all the situation where you can do that safely, particularly with a guide, are remove. Some guide now teach heuristic and are less in danger than there client. As a guide, if I bring you in spot where avalanche can occur, I took two risk I have an accident and my client was scare and I lost my clients. If I gave a safe course with heuristic,  the student didn't have to decide what is dangerous and when they are in a situation where it can be, they just don't take decision.

You as a guide would be pretty fucking comical to see! Better than any You-tube video that has ever been posted here.

1st meeting with the client at 7 am:
LL: Hello, I am Lucky Luke you heuristic guide for the day.

client: Heuristic guide, what the hell is that? I wanted to learn to climb and have some fun.

LL: You need heuristic guide to first determine if you sport or trad and I have decided you are a sport because I am the only trad man left!

Client: What is trad or sport?

LL: Trad climber is real man like me! Sport climbers wear lycra and listen to radio at crag but can not climb without bolt.

Client: I'm more confused.

LL: The main reason you need heuristic guide is to teach you to ignore all who can teach you the skills to survive. Just go out and climb and if you get LUCKY and survive then you can become a trad man like me.

Client: How long will that take, I just have the day.

LL: I have worn out many pairs of cotton t-shirts and panties in my quest

Client: OMG, I think I will go drinking instead today!



And I am going to wax my fat skis for a big day at Cannon tomorrow! :)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:53:18 PM by DaveR »

Offline lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1564
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 10:49:04 PM »
To be frank, if I have to choose, I will take the avy report over your (perhaps better) judgment, LL.  This based on what you have posted here on this Forum!

I am sure that I said: if you don't have time to test your skill with a climber with experiences in many different snow condition, support by knowledge, follow a set of rules that it is write on the avy post: any thing more than moderate danger is not climbable.

If you have time to test your skill in different condition, use every piece of information, but to climb and find the easiest path...even if it is lyon head.

The problem is when you have an accident, you most prove that you have the knowledge: a paper that you had follow a course teaching heuristic behavior.  If you had practiced in small area how avalanches are produce, how to see the path of the avalanche, how to avoid those trap, etc and you climb with an heuristic who want to prove that he his as good as you. In case of an accident, you can be suit because you have a pratical knowledge that the other don't master. Often you have less risk to climb alone.

Offline sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: Climber triggered avalanche in Huntington
« Reply #35 on: Today at 09:04:01 AM »
Great entertainment, Dave and LL.  :)

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ