Author Topic: Rumney  (Read 4392 times)

Offline Liam

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2003, 07:52:39 PM »
DMan-Dave Graham put that has and his freind...joe kinder I think. Unsure if they led it or not. Think so. This is Will from that class. (I think your that dave. Hope you had a great summer)

Offline Jeff

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2003, 09:09:00 AM »
Note to T-rad (still always hiding behide a pseudonym): before spraying about getting advanced degrees and calling others stupid, perhaps you should learn the difference between the possessive "your" and the contraction "you're". As Mark Twain so wisely said--" It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". Also, the fact that you type "WRONG" all in caps doesn't make you "RIGHT" -- it just means you're SHOUTING your opinion. (See last phrase for correct use of the two words in question.)  
   Lots of people on this forum have all kinds of degrees and lots don't--as one ages one realizes that it doesn't make any difference, especially when it comes to the validity of opinions on climbing. Cut out the pomposity and personal attacks and recognize that no one elected you to govern us all.
   As for returning to some presumed "golden age" of NH climbing when there were no crowds on the cliffs, I was there, and I doubt strongly that you were. Your intolerance smacks too strongly of the arrogance of youth. However I will join with others who have told you that your belief that chopping all bolts will take us back to some "purer time"  is WRONG (now I'm shouting) and incredibly naive.
        With all DUE respect--Jeff Lea  

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2003, 10:16:06 AM »
Liam,
Yep it's me.  Sent you a private message.
Dave

Offline AdamT_aka_t-rad

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2003, 10:47:22 AM »
Jeff, let me take your points one at a time.

Regarding your accusation that I hide behind pseudonyms, my name is Adam Tambone; I live in Portland, Maine.  If you go back and check my previous posts you will see that I occasionally sign them with my full name, but usually as Adam T.

Regarding capitalizing words, I do so for emphasis, not to denote shouting.  

Regarding not using the contraction "you're" correctly, I ask, what are you talking about?  I checked, and I don't see the error.  Perhaps you should keep that Twain quote in your pocket.  This is getting petty.

Regarding your accusation that I am arrogant...  I am not.  Instead, I would say that people like you generally do not like to be told that something they love to do is wrong.  They view the people who are telling them they are wrong as being arrogant and pompous.  I ask you this, what is more arrogant, drilling bolts into cliffs or standing up and saying that it is wrong?   Personally, I think people who place bolts on rappel are arrogant and disrespectful.  If you consider this pompous, then too bad.  At least I'm not damaging the rock, and permanently taming it with fixed gear.

Regarding your advice about not making personal attacks, and calling others stupid.  I was responding to someone who was calling me stupid, yet spells every other word incorrectly.  I was civil until then, and I should have just let it go.  But seriously, I was just turning up the heat on TradMan, as he does to others so often.  I'm sure he can take it; it's all in fun.  Plus, wasn't your post one big personal attack on me?

Regarding the validity of having a degree or not, you should note that I said "an advanced degree (or something equivalent)", which I meant as life experience.  But I agree, it does smack of arrogance.  It was wrong for me to say, and I'm sorry for it.

Finally, regarding your accusation that I am intolerant, clearly you are not tolerant of the view that PLACING BOLTS IS WRONG (I say this quietly but capitalize for emphasis).  Open your mind.  I'm not intolerant; I just think you're wrong.  

I know that sometimes I express my opinions in an outrageous manner, but I do so with a wink and a smile. :)  

-a

Offline AdamT_aka_t-rad

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2003, 03:29:56 PM »
Regarding the ascertion that I believe we can return to a golden age of NH climbing where crowds did not exist...  of course I don't believe this.  Who could?  I'll say it again, my only problem is with the over-abundance of fixed gear on the cliffs, often placed where natural protection is available or nearby.  My point related to crowds was that if most of the fixed belay stations were removed, then the crowds would thin out.  How much?  I don't know.  Someone mentioned this would funnel climbers to the crack climbs.  I agree, and that would be a bummer, but I'm optimistic that climbers can be creative enough to climb routes without the current catalog of fixed gear.  Maybe it would entail breaking up a long pitch into shorter pitches to take advantage of natural belay stations.  Maybe you would have to go a bit off route to get a belay station set up.  Maybe you would have to abandon a climb altogether, but at least you would have left the rock just the way you found it.  The leave no trace ethic is an ideal that can't be truley achieved, but that is no reason to dismiss it entirely.

The damage done to the popular climbing areas in NH is for the most part irreversible, so for those of you who like runouts bolted, belay stations fixed, quit complaining because you already have everything you want.  For those of us who don't like climbing cliffs that are gridded with bolts, thats just too bad.  There will always be people willing to rap down with a drill and take ownership of the cliff.  Some cleaning up can be done, but because these areas are literally swarming with climbers  there will always be new fixed gear being installed no matter how much people speak out against it.  It only takes one person with a power drill to overrule a local ethic, and therfore bolt-creep is irreversible and will expand exponentially to every single piece of rock with climbing potential.  Sanctifying this behavior in places like RUMNEY serves only to set a precedent fot future development in other climbing areas.  So by placing fixed gear in the popular climbing areas, you are dooming future climbing areas.

-a

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2003, 08:00:45 PM »
 ;DJeeze Adam, you didn't respond to the acusation that you were secret lovers with ken nichols 8)   On a more serious or at least on topic note (gramer sucks and i like it that way cause I am a redneck climbing bum not some stinking colege boy)  Where exactly is this nirvana without bolts. Area's like the Gunks with pleantifull cracks and bountifull natural gear placements tend to spawn the elitist anti bolt attitude. The problem with this is that other area's may not have  abundant crack systems and thereby should not be held to the same set of rules. There were lead bolted climbs put up in Dresden Germany before WWII  up to 5.10d  sans bosch bulldog and stealth rubber. I would wager that those climbs are a bit more traditional than anything you have ever put up. (Have you ever put up a new rt? or are you just preaching out your butt?)   The needles in south dakota  are 97% bolted. Those climbs were bolted on lead and they are chalenging, exciteing awsome climbs. There are hundreds of of absolutely beautifull climbs there that would not exist without bolts. In your anti bolt pscycosis would you have them eliminated? chopped, destroyed, gone because T-rad is the pure one  ::)  Would you prefer that there was a huge bundle of rotten tat wrapped arround a boulder  on the summit of Devils tower instead of the relitivly small bomber USFS eye bolts.   We can't forget the countless killer desert towers that sport bolts and drilled angles for both rap stations and running pro while climbing. I suppose in your purity you wouldn't climb any of them ::)   that's cool cause I am more than willing to climb em for you.  Then of course there is the big daddy of them all. The Nose on El cap.  Many have called it the greatest trad rt. in the world.   I have not had the privlege of attempting it  but  hope i get a chance at it before you chop the 125+ bolts on it.    I have a theory about  anti bolt fanatics. My theory is that the most rabbid of them with the exception of ken Nichols (got kicked out of his home turf for chopping bolts and fist fighting) generaly don't climb much outside of their home turf.    I wonder were T-rad fits in? Big Pond--small pond?

Offline ed_esmond

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2003, 04:31:51 PM »
adam,

i'm glad you were being "tounge in cheek..." because otherwise, you were sounding a little too much, "head in @ss...." ;)

i don't necessarily disagree with your desire to keep some areas free of fixed gear, but to expect everyone, everywhere to share your vision is somewhat naive.  (and is a little arrogant.)

every area and every group of "locals" are different.  diversity is not a bad thing in most things, including climbing.

personally, i like many aspects of the rumney experience, but don't think it should be the model for every other climbing area.  every area should decide for itself.

if the locals want to have a "ground up, bolts drilled-on-lead only lead" area, I say "god bless 'em."  if the locals want to use jammed knots for pro, i say," have at it...."    the locals decide that a "gritstone, 'headpoint'" ethic is want they want.... "go for it."  the more styles, the merrier the climbing.

apparently some people think that they just "know" the "right" way to climb and can't accept anything else.  I think that most people would agree that "knowing your own mind" is a good thing, but most would think that trying to impose it unilaterally on other is "arrogant."

ed esmond
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 04:39:26 PM by ed_esmond »
pragmatic: (adj) dealing with the problems that exist in a specific situation in a reasonable and logical way instead of depending on ideas and theories.

Offline t-rad

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2003, 07:57:28 AM »
Ed,

The occasional well placed bolt or fixed belay station doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is the insidious bolt-creep that seems unstoppable.  It's not as simple as stating what a local ethic is or should be, what really matters is what is actually occurring on the cliffs.  What I see actually occurring is bolt-creep everywhere I go.  The years go by, and more and more bolts show up, and now they are pushing into portions of the rock that they obviously don't belong.  Surely I am not the only one who has noticed this consistent trend.  So I ask, where does it stop?  My answer is, it won't stop.  The trend is irreversible.  

My problem with areas like Rumney is that the ethic there will surely influence climbers to bring the Rumney ethic to future and existing climbing areas.  I hear people saying this won't happen, but the evidence proves otherwise.

Finally, it's my opinion that climbing communities do not own the local cliffs in their areas, yet climbers feel as though they have the right to turn some of them into sport climbing centers.  Did anyone see the piece that wcsh6 aired last Sunday night?  A historically significant rock near Lake Tahoe under the control of the USFS has been practically grid bolted every square foot.  The tourists now complain that it is an eyesore and I agree.  Most bolts have quickdraws and biners hanging from them.  What gives climbers the right to do this?  The USFS is about to rule that the bolts have become too intrusive and are spoiling the aesthetic value of the area and will subsequently ban climbing and remove the bolts.  Do climbers have the right to turn cliffs into eyesores?

-a

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2003, 09:59:16 AM »
I do agree with t-rad on the  fixed draw thing . It is sort of ok up at wiamea because only climberz go up there. At any area that is a shared use area with hiker and other outdoor users those draws should be cleaned at the end of every climbing session.    I know that the belayer often dosen't follow those climbs but there is no reason why they shouldn't learn how to jug.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 10:03:22 AM by tradmanclimbz »

Offline Schandy

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2003, 10:16:59 AM »
Hehe...I'd like to see someone jug wiamea.  Maybe you could set up your ledge on the second bolt of 'the fly' to work out the moves.  You could put a few crash pads on it and make the landing way better.  Sportclimbers Jugging? ha.

Offline Jim_Ewing

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2003, 10:37:17 AM »
Adam,

Is the "historically significant rock near Lake Tahoe" Cave Rock?  The same Cave Rock with, not one but two, gaping holes complete with highways running through it?

Sorry, I just had to laugh at the prospect of an RV driving through at 50mph and it's occupents cringing at the sight of those horrible karabiners hanging in that cave right next to the road which went right through that rock which didn't have a whole in it until us white people arrived and wanted to drive through it on our way to the casino so we blasted two really big f'ing holes in it and.............

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, I just found this particularly funny.  Speaking of funny, I was climbing at Cathedral this past Saturday and noticed a giant fixed anchor that runs almost all the way around the top.  Looking at the attatchment points I noticed a bunch of old holes as if the original anchors had been chopped and then replaced.  On the way off the top of the cliff guess what I found?  A god damned road!  I couldn't believe it!  A road right to the freakin' top!  WTF?!  Also, while I was standing on the road below the cliff and looking up at it I noticed what looked like trails that had been carved through the lichen on the left side of the Airation Buttress.  Oddly, I could not see a single bolt anywhere.  The trails were still visible from route 16 while I was driving home.  Funny thing isn't it?

Cheers,
Jim

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2003, 10:39:12 AM »
Hey, it would be good for them to learn. Jugging is also a bit safer than takeing the big swing trying to clean those xtremly over hung rt's on lower. Besides the leader is jazzed from climbing and it would give the belay slave some exercise.

Offline t-rad

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2003, 10:45:27 AM »
Jim, yeah, it's Cave Rock, and yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  But what are you saying?  Since there is already man-made structures in and around the cliffs there is no reason to hold back on bolting them?  Since there is a road to the summit of Mount Washington we then have the right to do whatever we wish there?  Moreover these structures were built during a less environmentally enlightened time.  Let's stop the mistakes, and stop using previous mistakes as excuses to commit more damage.  

Besides, I'm more concerned about the cliffs that are off the beaten path.  Are you saying these areas aren't in danger of being bolted all to Hell?  It's happening right now.  Is anyone willing to say that it will end before it becomes ridiculous?  It already is in some places.

-a

Offline Jeff

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2003, 10:46:08 AM »
Adam, aka T-rad: since you tried to answer me point by point, I'll help you out by responding in kind. On Nov 7, you responded to Tradman in part with the following quote " while YOU'RE feeble brain..."; That was the contraction misuse I spoke of. You felt that my post was an attack on you--I was merely suggesting that before correcting grammar and attacking someone's presumed educational level, you ought to check your own usage. I often feel attacked when caught in an embarrassing error--maybe that's your situation here. Further on in your response to me, you presume to know what I "love to do" and imply later that I love to drill bolts; all this knowledge of my interests came from my reacting to your SHOUTING that drilling bolts is wrong (FYI on the Internet, writing in caps is generally considered shouting--a convention of the 'Net'). I've climbed for nearly 40 years, over 35 of them at Cathedral and Whitehorse and have drilled exactly 2 bolts, one on my route Royal Arches Reminiscence and one to replace an old quarter inch spinner at a belay on the Whitehorse slabs, with the blessing of the MRS. So much for your presuming to know what I love to do. My philosophy on bolting is, I admit, less stringent than you proclaim yours to be--I don't believe that all bolting is wrong; since I live in a state (Connecticut) where a rabid anti-bolter has removed all fixed protection in a fit of pique, endangering local and visiting climbers alike and damaging our rock far more than the offending bolts or pitons did (many of them originally placed by or in the company of the person who removed them) , I see red when someone proclaiming to have found "the way" wants to impose it on us all. If that is not your intent, than you haven't smiled or winked broadly enough for those of us who can't see you to understand your tongue in cheek remarks.This is not a personal attack --if you tried to understand others' points of view, you might find me more in agreement than you think. I, too, hate to come to a crag and see lines of hanging quick draws or fixed lines on "projects"; I feel that it's an eyesore and although I understand the "convenience " aspect, I know that we climbers are to blame for many of our access problems because of such actions. We can clean up our act without following the edict of an Ayatollah--we can speak to each other with civility and avoid personal attacks. We can clean up after ourselves and others on Adopt a Crag day and every day we climb.  Ski to live, Live to climb, Climb to ski.   ;) ;D  Jeff Lea

Offline t-rad

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Re: Rumney
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2003, 11:10:19 AM »
Jeff, well said, and I take your points well.

-a