Author Topic: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.  (Read 3492 times)

Offline GOclimb

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2009, 10:15:56 AM »
Apparently you have difficulty with reading comprehension.  Discussions on an online forum may not be right for you.

"The moves are identical" means the moves are identical.  Get it?  Not one climb identical to another climb.  That means that a right hand crimp, back step left foot, right foot high, rock over the foot and lock-off the right hand, and reach high with the left hand - is the same whether it's protected by a bolt or a tricam.  And you're as likely to find that move at Rumney or the Gunks.

The point is, pulling those moves at 5.10 and 5.11 involves a hell of a lot more than just the moves when you're trad climbing.  In my experience, onsighting traditionally protected face climbing at that level involves pretty finnicky placements, the ability to hang in there to place it, and the ability to read sequences of that difficulty as quickly as possible.  And even so, falls can be serious.  So one way to get more time learning how to both read and accomplish moves of that difficulty, and gain the strength to get them first go, is to do them at a place like Rumney or Farley, where the consequences of failure are minimal.

Taken by itself, sport climbing will not make you a strong trad climber.  But as a training tool, it can improve strength and some of the skill sets needed to climb harder trad.

Works for me, anyway.

GO

Offline sneoh

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2009, 10:46:20 AM »
Apparently you have difficulty with reading comprehension.  Discussions on an online forum may not be right for you.
Wow, so quick to draw and share such a damning conclusion.  It is a good thing I do not take offense easily or incline to point out someone's perceived weakness prematurely.  It can cut both ways, you know. :)

And thank you for the clarification below.  It was lacking in your prior post -
Not one climb identical to another climb.  That means that a right hand crimp, back step left foot, right foot high, rock over the foot and lock-off the right hand, and reach high with the left hand - is the same whether it's protected by a bolt or a tricam.  And you're as likely to find that move at Rumney or the Gunks.
Not everyone can read minds.

And, in the words of "crazyt" - "Peace".



"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline OldEric

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2009, 05:06:03 PM »
Don't cave so quickly Soon.  Gabe is right when he says the same technique - be it a drop knee or a hand jam - is usable in multiple situations when the terrain is the same.  He is 100% wrong when he says its equally likely that you will run into that terrain at the Gunks and Rumney - my kids will tell you that the Trapps are all slabs (of course they might say that about the Main Cliff at Rumney  :) too ).  My original statement had the same sentiment as Gabe's - that the techniques I had picked up sport climbing came in handy on Feast of Fools.  And a life time of jamming comes in useful at the top of Burried Treasure.  But since Gabe is feeling fiesty - lets get down to it.  There are most certainly sport specfic moves.  30 years ago no one did drop knees ("Egyptions") or dynos.  Well occassionally but they were much rarer.  Heel hooks - usually over the head - were about as radical as things got.  Thes type of moves became much more common with the explosion of sport climbing 20 years ago.  While maybe not sport "specific" they are certainly sport "influenced".  And even more crucial is that the techniques that are common in the type of climbing you are predominantly doing currently are what will seem instinctive to you when confronted with a sequence that may have multiple possibilities.

My roots (routes) are all granite trad ones - but because of what I mostly climb now I am worse at slab then I was as a shakey 5.8 climber 35 years ago.  But despite being old and decrepit and weaker - I have never been better at continiously overhanging stuff (I know - it wouldn't take much).  My instincts have changed.

Cheers,  have a nice day - and all that other anoying stuff.

Offline strandman

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2009, 05:15:17 PM »
 ;) Eric- I remember Niland one time telling me to "take your right foot off " I didn't know what he was talking about ! But I removed my foot from the hold and lowered it- voila- I could do the reach. I still don't know most of what he was talking about, but I remember that.

Offline GOclimb

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2009, 05:59:24 PM »
He is 100% wrong when he says its equally likely that you will run into that terrain at the Gunks and Rumney - my kids will tell you that the Trapps are all slabs (of course they might say that about the Main Cliff at Rumney  :) too ).

Every crag has a unique character, and the climbs on that crag feel different than the climbs anywhere else.  So what?  Taking your argument to the logical conclusion, suggests that climbing on crag "X" is of zero benefit to climbing on crag "Y".  Of course we know that's nonsense.  The more techniques you get under your belt on the more types of rock, the more tricks you have up your sleeve.  To suggest that these tricks are specific to the type of gear you use to protect the climb is ludicrous.  The techniques that work on a face with crimps in a shallow dihedral will work on another face with crimps in a shallow dihedral.  The friction coefficient of the rock may require you modify those techniques - more force on your hands on one, more on your feet on another, but they're basically going to be the same. 

But the key point is this:  the ability to onsight - critical in trad climbing - is grade specific.  In other words, when you have only done 5.9 and under climbs, and you look up at a 5.10+ route, you will have a very difficult time reading the sequences correctly, because you haven't developed the kinesthetic understanding of the forces and angles involved in climbing at that level.  Climbing harder sport can give you that kinesthetic awareness that will help you send harder trad climbs.

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There are most certainly sport specfic moves.  30 years ago no one did drop knees ("Egyptions") or dynos.  Well occassionally but they were much rarer.  Heel hooks - usually over the head - were about as radical as things got.  Thes type of moves became much more common with the explosion of sport climbing 20 years ago.  While maybe not sport "specific" they are certainly sport "influenced".

Thank you.  You make my point perfectly.  These are techniques which are not sport specific, but originate from sport climbing.  And when used appropriately, they help you be more efficient when trad climbing.  How do you get proficient at these techniques quickly?  Sport climbing!

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And even more crucial is that the techniques that are common in the type of climbing you are predominantly doing currently are what will seem instinctive to you when confronted with a sequence that may have multiple possibilities.

Hmm... I think you're right - I must be feeling particularly uppity, because I don't really agree with this.  I've always been a lousy slab climber, because I've never spent much time at it.  My time in the gym means that I'll always be reasonably comfortable on overhangs, even if I don't currently have the guns to back up my technique.  And I've spent enough time with cracks that I will never consider laybacking something that can more easily be jammed. 

I think you can get rusty, you can get out of shape, but you never lose your eye for a sequence.  Or maybe I just haven't been climbing long enough, and in 20 years of doing "X" I'll forget how to read sequence "Y".

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My roots (routes) are all granite trad ones - but because of what I mostly climb now I am worse at slab then I was as a shakey 5.8 climber 35 years ago.  But despite being old and decrepit and weaker - I have never been better at continiously overhanging stuff (I know - it wouldn't take much).  My instincts have changed.

You sure it's not just that slab is typically poorly protected, and you're not young and stupid the way you once were?

Quote
Cheers,  have a nice day - and all that other anoying stuff.

Cheers to you too!  Hope your season has been a good one!

GO

Offline sneoh

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2009, 06:06:01 PM »
We are way past the point of flogging a dead horse and wasting energy on minutia, so what's a little more?!  :)
I have thrown some rather radical drop-knees on cave type boulder problems (on plastic and down at LWoods).  At least for me, I cannot envision needing to do anything that crazy on a route, be it trad or sport.  Perhaps it is the case of just not getting on the 'right' route. 

For the most part, it is just climbing, trad or sport; get better, stay the same, whatever.  Having fun and staying healthy are the top priorities for me now.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline sneoh

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2009, 06:38:04 PM »
I remember Niland one time telling me to "take your right foot off " I didn't know what he was talking about ! But I removed my foot from the hold and lowered it- voila- I could do the reach.
Whitey refers to Paul as "Coach Niland".  Seems appropriate, given this tidbit  :)


"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline strandman

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2009, 09:14:09 AM »
Maybe a thread on Coach ? I got some stories from the past 30 or so years. I'm sure Eric has and Steve W have some too !!!!!!!

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2009, 04:56:06 PM »
I've got the stories, pictures, and the physical evidence. NECLIMBS would not be able to handle all the "evidence." We would need to create a new website. www.coachpaul.com.

Offline strandman

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2009, 06:07:24 PM »
YOU are an asshole steve ! But nuthin' we did not know

Offline steven cooney

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2010, 06:53:33 AM »
Sport climbing is horrible for trad climbing.  Hands down fact and proven.  Same with bouldering.  Horrible for your trad climbing.  Ask Matt Wilder and Tommy Caldwell if you don't believe me.  Terrible!  Don't do it anymore.  Get away from that Baker river and stay away!

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2010, 01:32:39 PM »
Don't cave so quickly Soon.  Gabe is right when he says the same technique - be it a drop knee or a hand jam - is usable in multiple situations when the terrain is the same.  He is 100% wrong when he says its equally likely that you will run into that terrain at the Gunks and Rumney -
I think that sport is as difficult as trad, but different. Many accident happen when a very good technique is use in dangerous places. In ssport, you learn to do a move at your limit and fall on a bolt. In trad, you learn to do a move above your limit and fall on your leg. In that way, if you hurt somethink, you can push yourself in a safe place.

I was climbing in Quebec, Lido, 5.10, my pro was 10 feet under me, I did a move and jump in the middle of the diedral, I didn't try to stay on the rock. I wasn't in danger at all. Thinking of sequences, how to fall, choosing the good technique, placing your body in case of a fall are three thinks that you have to do as a trad climber.

A Quebec sport climber did three birthches. At the bottom of the cliff, there is a slab. He put a tricam and try the move. His hand slip from the hold before his feet (standing on his feet to high). The guy fell the bumb first. Luckely, his tricam stop the fall. I estimated that a broken coxix, head injury, and other contusion will be his minimum injury.

Should we put a bolt or place our feet lower than normal to climb three birtches? Trad will say it is part of the game to put feet lower, sport will say put a bolt. It is not crazy in both ethic of climbing.

When we climb with sport climber, they insult us regularly: it's old school, easy think, etc. When we say that sport is a part of climbing technique, we didn't insult them. They are good climber specialyze in movement. We just say that some thecnique that a guide teach us cannot be learn in a crag.

For exemple, many sport climber hold the rope very tight in a fall. With bolt, there is no zipper effect. With stopper, you can dislodge your cam by pulling outward in a fall (ask to old climber the zipper effect). You must have some slack on the rope to allow the climber to jump in a safe place. So, many trad climber have slack on the rope, but, when you climb a thirty foot route, slack with elongation means a ground fall. Who is right? I'm a trad, I will follow sport advice at rumney to train movement technique. Is it a competition?           
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 01:34:10 PM by champoing »

Offline sneoh

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2010, 01:58:02 PM »
For exemple, many sport climber hold the rope very tight in a fall. With bolt, there is no zipper effect. With stopper, you can dislodge your cam by pulling outward in a fall (ask to old climber the zipper effect). You must have some slack on the rope to allow the climber to jump in a safe place. So, many trad climber have slack on the rope, but, when you climb a thirty foot route, slack with elongation means a ground fall. Who is right? I'm a trad, I will follow sport advice at rumney to train movement technique. Is it a competition?           
Belaying with too little or too much slack is a pervasive problem.  That said, I have encountered many climbers who know better and belay with just  enough slack to allow for a "soft catch" without groundfall potential, on both traditional and sport routes. 
On the flip side, I have witnessed (or heard 1st hand) falling climbers getting slammed into the rock on sport routes because there was not enough slack or the belayer pulling in too much rope while the climber was in flight, including someone breaking ankle on Eyeless in Gaza, a sport route.

-SNeoh

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Sport climbing makes you a better trad climber.
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2010, 11:41:41 PM »
For exemple, many sport climber hold the rope very tight in a fall. With bolt, there is no zipper effect. With stopper, you can dislodge your cam by pulling outward in a fall (ask to old climber the zipper effect). You must have some slack on the rope to allow the climber to jump in a safe place.       
Even if I agree that a lot of NH climber climb trad with there father and prefere sport because you have more hard move in a short sequences, I never saw a zipper effect on bolt. Using sport sling, I did a zipper and fell on my second pro safely this year. 

I also agree that a good belayer know when the rope must run and when to take the slack. I just state that the diversity of situation is greater in trad and most climber who begin as sport climber don't have the knowledge and experiment to be a good belayer in all situation, like zipper effect. Zipper effect can not be teach in a crag with bolt.