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Author Topic: Training  (Read 762 times)

hobbsj

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Re: Training
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2010, 09:27:43 AM »

"Weight training may be use ful for overall conditioning, but i think it's virtually useless for climbing"

You're pretty accurate in that statement.  The key with training plans is specificity.  Marathon runners don't do 50 meter all-out repeats (at least ones who know how to train).  But when rock isn't accessible, you have to get some sort of stimulation to those muscles.  Depending on what physiological change you want, you can do other activities and the body doesn't know the difference.  For example, a runner can train on a bike in the off-season and get some of the benefits as the heart doesn't know the difference and the blood volume will stay increased.  The muscles specific to running will know that they're missing out, but training them isn't the goal during this period.  On the flip side, weights do nothing for performance for cyclists and runners as the changes that training induces have nothing to do with the limiters on their performance.  Same can be said about most gym routines for climbing.  Do you need a better bench to climb harder?  Well, maybe if you're really scrawny and have a really awkward chimney on your tick list.  But most routines have very little that will translate in to climbing.  Not saying those other training methods are bad (actually, some are like the Atkins diet for exercisers).  But they have their place in the fitness exercise world.  Just most of them don't have much benefit to climbing and could be replaced with something better.  If all you have are weights, then its better than nothing.  Just don't expect to see gains due to the weights.

meclimber- with a big goal coming up, your best approach is a periodization set up with changes in intensity, frequency and duration.  You can peak for your trip and get a lot more out of your time.  For instance, I have had elite level bike racers who's races are 3 to 5 hours long training 8 hours a week.  Its just hitting the workouts for the change we're trying to ellicit and then heading home.

As far as the beer.......alcohol is actually a preferential fuel in the body.  Before you get excited, I'm not saying its the best fuel.  You just utilize as much as you can. BUT alcohol inhibits the absorption of carbohydrates in the muscles and can slow recovery. 
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meclimber

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Re: Training
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 09:36:57 AM »

damn hobbs, you got me thirsty there for a minute!  thanks for the input.
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Jon Howard

strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 09:43:48 AM »

i tried weight training for a couple of years and I am convinced it did nothing. when i started heavy tr'ing and lots of climbing, it helped immensely. I went from kinda leading 5.10 pretty good to my first 5.12 in 4 months.
Bullshit ? I don't think so
Coach Niland's crack machine, 50 pitches at the Quarries, 50 problems at Lincoln Woods- this is what helps.
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bfulton

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Re: Training
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 10:10:25 AM »

If you look into it all serious, professional athletes use weight training as part of their overall regime.

Continuous hard climbing without strengthening the antagonistic muscles invariably leads to overuse injuries, especially tendons, in most people.

Weight train to stay heathy
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perswig

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Re: Training
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 06:16:52 PM »

Bongo board.
Indian clubs.

Hippy old-school.


Dale
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If it's overhanging, I'm probably off-route.

strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 08:54:39 PM »

If you look into it all serious, professional athletes use weight training as part of their overall regime.

Continuous hard climbing without strengthening the antagonistic muscles invariably leads to overuse injuries, especially tendons, in most people.

Weight train to stay heathy
[/quoteI disagree- climbing leads to these problems with or without antag training.. If you climb hard over a long period of time , you WILL hurt.

I was RIPPED when i did some serious OW in Veedawoo and still screwed my back. It's all about climbing, like no other sport,
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strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 09:02:28 PM »

If you look into it all serious, professional athletes use weight training as part of their overall regime.

Continuous hard climbing without strengthening the antagonistic muscles invariably leads to overuse injuries, especially tendons, in most people.

Weight train to stay heathy
Which ones ?= Not Sharma, not pou, not Nicole, not Caldwell.... ?
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llamero

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Re: Training
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 09:05:16 PM »

I don't want to stir up too much trouble  :P, but a lot of those firmly opposed to training off rock have also posted about a wide array of chronic injuries plaguing them...this is not normal and stems from over straining tissues before they've had a chance to over-compensate from the previous injury.  Do this enough times and your body can no longer heal properly.

When rock climbing, especially on lead, you don't have the opportunity to go "I'm over-working my joints, I need to back-off".  Instead, you're forced to continue past the point of injury or risk even greater injury in a fall.  In a gym, you can stop the moment things twinge or feel off, and let those joints/tendons heal properly before continuing.

Conversely, excellent rock climbing technique will let a relative weakling tackle 5.10s (past that strength is pretty much essential).  So practicing regularly on rock is critical to mastering how to get the most out of what strength you have.

For me, when I trained on rock exclusively, I kept getting mild pulley injuries in my fingers.  However, through strength training that emphasized compound motions and grip strength, I was able to go out this season and hammer hard on crimpers with no pain at all.

So, for me at least, strength training has been very helpful.  And there are plenty of exercises relevant to climbing: pull-ups, dips, rows, supermans, and crunches all help with core strengthening and strengthening the upper body.  Wrist rollers can be done to strengthen the forearms and the tendons in the fingers.  I've also found nothing matches running up mountains for leg strengthening and improving over-all stamina.

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It is better to not summit and wish you had, than to summit and wish you hadn't.

strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 09:14:00 PM »

You make some good points- however i think that if you climb hard for a long period, you will have problems. i don't know anyone who has climbed 5.12 or better for years that does not have problems.
It's just to tough on the the tendons and joints.

Pump beer not iron
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llamero

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Re: Training
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 10:45:00 PM »

I think that's why I'll stick with V1+ bouldering and only top roping harder problems.  I just don't feel a strong enough passion to be self destructive.  And I definitely agree about 5.12 climbing being brutal on the body.  I was climbing injury free until I started projecting a 5.11 problem.  I didn't fully appreciate that 5.11 was in a completely different class from 5.10, and managed to strain my hands so hard that my fingers started locking up in the morning, but I kept climbing for another couple weeks before finally admitting that the injury wasn't going away and I needed to take a break.

Since then I've learned to listen carefully to my hands and buddy-tape or back away when things start feeling off.  This has helped in staving injuries, but also means I'll likely never get past climbing 5.7 or 5.8 on lead and 5.10 on top rope, but I personally am fine with that and enjoy just being out on the rock in good company, sitting on ledges halfway up a cliff face enjoying the views, and the exhilaration of completing any climb whether 5.4 or 5.11.
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It is better to not summit and wish you had, than to summit and wish you hadn't.

hobbsj

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Re: Training
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2010, 07:55:29 AM »

"Since then I've learned to listen carefully to my hands and buddy-tape or back away when things start feeling off"

Man, key sentence there.  In the debate in weights or not, its things like that  that most people don't factor in to the equation.  I see it a lot with my athletes with the training fads.  Relation the the weight room?  You obviously have undergone a major shift in your training.  So, is it the weights?  Is it you backing off earlier? Or is it you getting injured and progressing a little more slowly to give time for adaptations?  If you're healthy and having fun, who cares what it is.  You're healthy and having fun.  But to have a cause of being injury free, you really need to look at everything.  I had several athletes who were dying to try this off season interval type that was a big fad that year.  "So and so swears by them and he heard it from so and so."  What they didn't realize was that their buddy was still new and fitness gains were made easily.  And not only that, "so and so" usually sat around doing nothing in the winter so just by the nature of training in the off season they were faster.  Plus, they had developed a new eating strategy that kept them from bonking at mile 50 of the group ride.  But to really identify what is going on, you can't make the blanket statement of weight training keeping you injury free.  Tendinitis can just as easily happen in the weight room as many injured iron-pumpers will tell you, although I do understand that when you are run out on a 5.12 X you don't have the option to back off.  But by that point where it is hurting on the climb or the gym, it is already too late.  And I doubt if "the pulley's" are trained in the weight room sufficiently to prevent injury (remember that specificity word from earlier in the topic).  Connective tissue is a nasty beast if you don't be careful. But if you like the weights, go for it.  And for some people they have their place for general fitness or rehab if they are already injured. But for the athlete looking to get the most gains for their effort, there are better things and structures of training depending on the goals.  And remember this, the first 6 to 12 weeks of weight training is mostly neurological adaptations with the motor units.  Key word is mostly so yes there can be a some strength gain and muscle adaptations. 

As far as pro-athletes go, worst source of information ever regarding training and physiology (for the most part, there are exceptions).  There was a former US champion and Tour de France rider who lived back in my town who would tell people "you can't take more than one day off for rest days b/c your cardiovascular system starts to close up."  My co-workers and I didn't know weather to laugh until we cried or be mad that this is the type of junk being spread that we have to try to educate people about.  And a pro-cyclist friend in Italy had team mates telling her not to drink water or sports drink when it was hotter than 85 outside. 
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Admin Al

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Re: Training
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2010, 09:22:49 AM »

And a pro-cyclist friend in Italy had team mates telling her not to drink water or sports drink when it was hotter than 85 outside. 

OMG.... lots of superstitions in the pro bike community
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strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2010, 10:20:50 AM »

OK, OK I am the first to admit that I have on occasion ! pushed well into the injury zone. I knew i was doing it and still did it. i wanted to climb hard and was willing to go for it.

Yes lot's of us oldies have severe joint issues and such,,. I for one would not have changed a thing. i just loved trying stuff that I didn't know if I could do.

I doubt at that level of commitment that ANYTHING would have prevented injury.
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eric8

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Re: Training
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2010, 07:43:14 PM »

What are you training for??? Yosemite is a little vague.  You could boulder, climb 1 pitch routes, longer classics, or a big wall aid route and you would train differently for all of them...

I'm with Strandman, I know no one who climbs hard who climbs 5.12 or harder that does any serious weight lifting.  I am not saying its not possible just not common.  If your going to do big wall aid routes then knock yourself out with the wieghtlifting and crossfit/mountain athlete workouts.  I did crossfit for a 8 months once and say no improvement in my rock climbing ability.  I could climb pretty much any 5.10 but just couldn't do the moves on 11's.  So I spent the winter bouldering and fingerboarding and by July I was redpointing 12- cracks...Doing a half hour of wieght lifting once a week to work your antagonist muscles is fine but I wouldn't do anymore.

I found a great thing to do is write down why you fell the last 5 times.  Usually I notice a pattern.   For example, right know mine are
1. Did not get a proper warm up, hands went numb.
2. Misread the sequence and couldn't reverse it
3. Got pumped out of my mind
4. Misread the sequence causing me to pump out
5. got to pumped...

Which tells me I need some mileage for endurance and reading sequences.  And if you can't remember the last 5 times you feel off a route, then there is your problem your not pushing yourself.
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strandman

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Re: Training
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2010, 10:56:48 AM »

jerry Moffat used to say "If I fall off a 12B, it's 'cause I'm bored" Not that any of us are Moffat but the same applies to all grades. If you just wanna cruise around that's cool. But if you wanna push, then climbing is your best workout.
When I was hard lappin' in the Quarries , it was boring and stuff but i actually kinda liked it. Then again I don't really mind rehab/ PT either.
Prolly just brain dead from no helmet   ;)
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