Author Topic: taping  (Read 1867 times)

Offline strandman

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taping
« on: May 11, 2010, 07:16:06 pm »
this should get some opinions- 

I like tape, it works and i use it all the time. some say it really doesn't do anything- bullshit.

Tape clearly supports tendons esp in the hands and fingers. it doesn't matter what medicine says , i got 30 years saying it works, if this is Psycho then so be it...

protection- ever climb in veedawoo ? my bud Bob says" ya , tape is aid, so what ? " If tape is aid then so is chalk, and fucking spider mitts, and sticky rubber and...

I don't seem too bitter do I ? ???

Offline old_school

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Re: taping
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 07:33:51 pm »
Tape is my religion.  ;)
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

Offline sneoh

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Re: taping
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 07:39:23 pm »
Tape is my religion.  ;)
And tape is my friend. :)


"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline strandman

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Re: taping
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 07:46:22 pm »
I got geared about this after Doc robert theodore at mass general said taping was only psycho.  Time for a climb , DOc ?.......  let's try Horn's mother at the V

Offline hobbsj

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Re: taping
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 07:26:33 am »
Well, if there's no support, there's no support for it.  I can't say as I've never  seen any data, but I have questioned it.  But I always tell athletes the placebo affect is a very strong effect.

To give you an idea, there was a study looking at anabolic steroids on a weight training regime.  They found that the placebo gave the same benefits as the treatment.

 But what people fail to do is realize other causes that are associated with what they are doing.  And if there's no data, there's no data. And there's a big difference between "it does not do anything" and "I haven't seen anything to make me think it would work."  If its not hurting you, and you have the few extra dimes for the tape, go for it.  Its not like your popping a mega dose of a homemade elixirs.

Offline Dave

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Re: taping
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 12:05:08 pm »
Well, if there's no support, there's no support for it.  I can't say as I've never  seen any data, but I have questioned it.  But I always tell athletes the placebo affect is a very strong effect.

To give you an idea, there was a study looking at anabolic steroids on a weight training regime.  They found that the placebo gave the same benefits as the treatment.

 But what people fail to do is realize other causes that are associated with what they are doing.  And if there's no data, there's no data. And there's a big difference between "it does not do anything" and "I haven't seen anything to make me think it would work."  If its not hurting you, and you have the few extra dimes for the tape, go for it.  Its not like your popping a mega dose of a homemade elixirs.

I tape after a partial tendon tear confirmed by an MRI 3 years ago. The hand surgeon said there was no medical evidence to support it helping but said it certainly would not hurt to do it.

I would like to see the study on steroids that you mention. Placebos of pain meds are often used in hospitals with great affect but I fail to see from a scientific standpoint how a placebo steroid shot would work. It's easy to see how placebo pain meds trick the brain but steroids work differently.

Offline llamero

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Re: taping
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 12:23:10 pm »
Placebo steroid shots work the same way as protein shakes and other dietary supplements.  People (normally men) feel as though they're plateauing when they "can't" push harder, so they turn to supplements to boost performance.  The scientific literature has shown consistently that the supplements do little to nothing, and that the benefit is a psychological benefit where people now think they're stronger because of the supplements, so they push harder than they did before and become stronger, regardless of whether they received the placebo or the real supplement.

As far as taping goes, I had bashed a finger while bouldering early in the season last year, and the injury kept getting worse when I climbed until I started buddy taping.  Then the injury not only stopped getting worse, but actually started getting better.  However, in my experience, buddy taping makes climbing a lot harder where you can no longer spread your fingers as far, and you're now only climbing on 4 fingers instead of 5.  Anyone who says buddy taping is aid is probably the same kind of person who brags about how they decked it on a free solo and survived.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 12:28:27 pm by llamero »
It is better to not summit and wish you had, than to summit and wish you hadn't.

Offline hobbsj

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Re: taping
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 02:00:52 pm »
"I would like to see the study on steroids that you mention. Placebos of pain meds are often used in hospitals with great affect but I fail to see from a scientific standpoint how a placebo steroid shot would work. It's easy to see how placebo pain meds trick the brain but steroids work differently."


This was one we read several years ago in school.  Unfortunately I don't have it.  But you'll be amazed at what a placebo will do to athletes.  Many times there is a significant difference between the placebo and baseline and not between the treatment and placebo.  But marketing will sure make note of the difference between baseline and the treatment. 

Another prime example is sports drinks/salt and hydration in relation to cramping,  There's actually no link between these as most of the studies are back from the early 1900's and were merely a correlation.  Last time I checked the only study looking at this found that the supplemented group actually cramped more.  But when people know that they have their sports drinks, they claim to not cramp or attribute their cramps to not enough sports drink.  Its a placebo actually interfering with a biological process. But again, its cheap, non-invasive, and easy to implement, so why not?

Oh yeah, studies have shown that supplements are useful products, but when used as their name states, as supplements.  It fills holes where your diet is lacking and they can be very good at it.  And even further, studies have shown that they can actually increase muscle mass.  I'm not talking about "Joe's Brand Supplement and Back-ally Lab" either.  At high enough of a dose, you can essentially force anabolism.  This blew me away when I first learned about it as I was under the impression that it was just an expensive snack.  Key is a high enough dose at the right time.

So, back to taping.  If a piece of tape makes your finger feel better, go for it.  And remember one other thing out of this science nonsense, just because it hasn't been looked in to doesn't mean it doesn't work.  I'm sure there were neigh-sayers to protein in carbohydrate recovery drinks before somebody decided to look to see if it actually worked.

Offline Dave

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Re: taping
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 02:08:57 pm »
Placebo steroid shots work the same way as protein shakes and other dietary supplements.  People (normally men) feel as though they're plateauing when they "can't" push harder, so they turn to supplements to boost performance.  The scientific literature has shown consistently that the supplements do little to nothing, and that the benefit is a psychological benefit where people now think they're stronger because of the supplements, so they push harder than they did before and become stronger, regardless of whether they received the placebo or the real supplement.

Comparing anbolic steroids to over the counter supplements is comparing apples and oranges. They may both be round but they are not the same.

Offline llamero

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Re: taping
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 02:42:52 pm »
Steroids themselves do promote muscle growth when compared to placebo such as was shown in this paper: "Muscle ultrastructure after strength training with placebo or anabolic steroid." Kuipers, et al. Can J Appl Physiol. 1993 Jun;18(2):189-96.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8513291  This is a fairly rigorous study in that they rely on needle biopsies rather than the much more subjective standard of strength (which is highly dependent on motivation, proper warming up, and how fatigued the body is).  The study found that steroids increased muscle fiber cross-section, but did not increase capillary supply to said muscle.  Basically steroids build muscles that are bulky, but not terribly functional in a practical sense, where increased blood flow is still necessary for sustained muscle use.

One of the classic papers on the steroid placebo effect is this paper: "Anabolic steroids: the physiological effects of placebos" Ariel, et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 1972 Summer;4(2).  In this paper a group of male varsity athletes were asked to take part in a study on fitness and training.  Halfway into the study, six of the fifteen were told they were going to receive steroids, when in reality they were just getting placebos.  Nonetheless, their rate of improvement was greater than both the non-treated group and greater than their own rate of improvement before treatment.  Behold the power of suggestion.

All in all, anabolic steroids do a lot more harm than good for most athletes (except body builders and others who primarily need just bulk).  This is because at very high doses they do promote increased muscle growth, which then unfortunately outpaces bone and tendon growth.  As a result, you get doped up athletes ripping tendons and muscles and breaking bones on a regular basis.  Above and beyond this, males have the increased risk of developing prostate cancer if they regularly use androgenic steroid hormones, and excess testosterone gets metabolised to estrogen resulting in other presumably unwanted side-effects.  Body builders are the only group I can think of who may benefit from steroids, where their muscles doesn't have to be functional beyond flexing for short periods.
It is better to not summit and wish you had, than to summit and wish you hadn't.

Offline meclimber

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Re: taping
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 04:30:10 pm »
Tape makes me happy!

Sports, climbing, my profession, pretty much anything can be fixed or made better with some type of tape.  Duct and linen being the best for me.

 llamero, to much quoting!!!  It either works for you or it don't.  I saw you cite something in the second paragraph and my eyes crossed. 
Jon Howard

Offline strandman

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Re: taping
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 07:54:31 pm »
Dude you need gorilla tape. I don't know... the more time I spend with Docs, the more I do on my own. Tape, Ibuprofen, scotch and beer. I went to the doc today for my wrist 'cause it's been kinda bothering me for 3 weeks. His exact quote - "when was the last time you fractured your wrist ? " 

We can wrap it up at this point. Well I got a lot of experience wrapping so.. One of my best friends is a PT and she said- " Oh, that again"

I can only hope that my rants will still be out there on NEClimbs !   ;)

Offline llamero

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Re: taping
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 08:48:05 pm »
llamero, to much quoting!!!  It either works for you or it don't.  I saw you cite something in the second paragraph and my eyes crossed. 

Sorry, I think I let my grad school life get the best of me.  :D
It is better to not summit and wish you had, than to summit and wish you hadn't.

Offline meclimber

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Re: taping
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 08:19:36 am »
^^funny.  We have a couple in the family (grad students), I can appreciate the over citing! ;D
Jon Howard

Offline Danielle

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Re: taping
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 08:53:35 am »
If the Placebo effect really works with steroids ,
 It makes me wonder what a set of new shoes, and some fancy new Master cams would do for my climbing abilities ,
Danielle