ATC Guide and petzle reverso

[tradmanclimbz]

  I have an old reverso as well as a new ATC guide. The only time I use either  to belay directly off the anchor in auto lock mode is when bringing up 2 seconds on easy terrain.  INMOP if the climbing is really difficult simo following is just too dangerous.  The risk of one climber falling into the other with the rope streatch and all is just not worth the  risk. I still have VIVID memorys of my buddy flying by me and swinging and spinning arround like a crazy pendulum covered with sharp things on Le Promenade. Me hanging on for dear life just hopeing none of the sharp things hit me!  50m of 8.1mm half rope streatches a LOT in a TR fall. 

So yes, on easy terrain where it is wide enough for two I will bring em both up at once.  Same thing with rock. perfect for slab climbing but If the climbing is at or exceeds the ability of the followers I bring them up one at a time. If I am a party of 2 I almost Never use the device in auto lock on difficult terrain for the simple reason that it is so hard to lower a  fallen 2nd.  The new BD has a hole at least to thread but god what a hassel. especially if someone is hurt.

I have had  about 5 to 8 situations in the last decade where my 2nd could not follow a pitch.  You don't plan on that happening and if you think it might happen I will hang an alpine aider at that spot if I have anticipated it. If not a 4ft runner should do the trick.  Every time I have encountered the problem of a completly gassed and overwhelmed 2nd I have simply lowered them to the ground and  bailed. No big deal. I can imagin that in auto lock mode this would  in most cases be a real serious hassel. One of those events was on the Waterfall at Poko  in low single digit temps. My partner got so gassed following the pitch that he fell out of his tools leaveing his gloves stuck in the leashes. That was certainally a situation in those temps where lowering quickly was prudent.

Maybe I am missing something here? I know all you guides use these devices in auto lock mode all the time but for me it seems  unnessicary most of the time and has the potentual to be dangerous.  Certainly not ideal for giveing a good belay to someone attempting a hard roof where the prefered technique is to be very precise in  takeing in slack without pulling them outwards off the roof and then feeding the rope smoothly back out as they retrete back to the rest stance below the roof.  In Most cases you can not see your second when they are below the roof so a good fishermans feel of the line is  paramount to giveing a good belay in this situation. Can't imagin being able to do this correctly with an auto lock device.. Thoughts?

[ELM]

THis covers how to lower with the ATC guide. You would need to set your anchor up as shown in auto-locking and if you needed to lower you'de have the ability. I have lowered someone once using this method and really had no trouble....remarkably.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb-video/video/howto-video-using-an-atc-guide/

[DLottmann]

We don't guide to many hard roofs in this area so it tends to be a non-issue. In that rare instance it's easy enough to belay indirectly or off the waist. I have become very adept at switching from a locked off plate (like the ATC Guide and Reverson) to a Munter Hitch for a lower when need be. Works like a charm, and contrary to popular belief Muntner's do not twist the rope... improper use of them however...

[tradmanclimbz]

Dman, so you escape the belay and lower with the Munter VS rigging the extra cord to put the pressure off the ATC guide for lowering?

[JJ Jameson]

Both Petzl (first) and BD (notably after petzl changed theirs) saw the difficulty in releasing a locked auto block style plate/ tube belay device using the thin cord redirected to lever the device, and redesigned the release function. Now you can just use the nose of a carabiner to lever the device up to release the rope, and in the reverso 3's case do so quite easily. Your brake hand stays on the brake strand, and you just hook a biner in the release hole of the reverso and torque it using a biner in your other hand, with the spine of the biner in your hand. I have not tried the newer ATC.
I have already had to lower a second off an ice route, and it went very smoothly, and easily, with full weight on the rope (190 lbs hanging free) completely locked. So, I'm a believer, at least in the reverso 3.
Didn't have to re-rig anything, just pluck a Biner off your harness, good to go.

Great device.

[DLottmann]

Dman, so you escape the belay and lower with the Munter VS rigging the extra cord to put the pressure off the ATC guide for lowering?

I'm already "escaped" as I am belaying off the anchor. I have a handful of ATC guides and Reverso's and in my experience rigging that cord does not lead to a smooth lower. Works for short lowers, but if I am lowering full length I either go Munter or convert the Guide/Reverso into a redirected lower (non-locking) directly off the anchor. This can be super fast with practice but is trickier if the rope is fully loaded (though can be done).

[tradmanclimbz]

seems to me that if the rope is fully loaded it is going to be tricky to switck to the munter as well.   Easy enough to put annother device into the rope be it munter or 2nd belay device but then you will still have to get the weight off the rope to remove the locked up primary device?

[MAmedic]

Even fully loaded its not to bad to switch from a autoblocked plate to a lower of your choice.  With a prussic tied to a mariners knot or a MMO its easy to release the prussic once the munter is placed behind the autoblock.  I leave about 6-12 inches between the munter and the autoblock then lower the weight onto the prussic.  The munter is already tied off with a mule knot so if the prussic fails the second only falls another 6-12 inches.  This is my basic sequence.  Its not as fast as a redirected device off a harness but I find it works for me.  Because this is not something I do every day its something I practice every once in a while.  Like any self rescue/ assist sequence this is not something to experiment with when it counts so grab your belay stuff, grab a six pack and head for the garage and practice.  makes a good rainy day activity

[tradmanclimbz]

I know how to do the prusic thing etc. just seems like a huge hassel compared to just lowering with no extra steps. i guess its going to take some real convinceing to get me to change my ways. for instance If i had stayed with BD tools w/ the android leash I most likly never would have made the switch to 100% leashless. By useing Quarks I found that the clipper leashes were such a hAssel that it made sense to go leashless.

In short the clipper leashes system  was  broken, it needed fixing so I fixed it by going leashless. My belay system is not broken so why should I change it?  Convince me!

[DLottmann]

No need to convince you, sounds like you have your system dialed which is more important than what system you use.

[JakeDatc]

Have been thinking about this the last season and over the winter.. i'm becoming more convinced to start using my Cinch to bring up my second.  I like it better to belay a leader anyway and carrying it on multipitch doesn't bother me.    makes lowering easier with just a simple re-direct off a spare biner on the anchor.    i don't use doubles so that isn't an issue. 

[tradmanclimbz]

I think thet my new atc guide is lighter than my old ATCXP.
That is so cool because i can use it like a normal tube device most of the time but If i end up doing moderate climbs with Isa and her daughter i can use it in guide mode for simo following without haveing to remember to find the reverso.

[tradmanclimbz]

If you climb multi pitch with singles i bet the new Gri Gri would be a good unit. $$$$ Pricy though.

[JakeDatc]

If you climb multi pitch with singles i bet the new Gri Gri would be a good unit. $$$$ Pricy though.

I like the ergonomics of the Cinch better.   I've never used a  gri gri for lead belaying.   the weight difference is minimal.    plus since i already have a Cinch it is simple. 

[tradmanclimbz]

I just saw photos of the new gri gri. it looks pretty small and light but it is $100.00 clams.