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[sneoh]

So, as an underinformed climber, the major question I have is how do local chapters of the AMC work with climber's coalition lke the RCA and federal/state agencies (where applicable) like the NFS to determine where to perform trail maintenance/improvement, erosion mitigation, clearing of fallen trees,etc, and the scope of these tasks.  Anyone?  THX.

[OldEric]

So, as an underinformed climber, the major question I have is how do local chapters of the AMC work with climber's coalition lke the RCA and federal/state agencies (where applicable) like the NFS to determine where to perform trail maintenance/improvement, erosion mitigation, clearing of fallen trees,etc, and the scope of these tasks.  Anyone?  THX.

Not sure what you are asking Soon.  The local chapters - actually "committees" within a local chapter (which are somewhat autonomous) would tend to donate  $$ to local stewards (RCA, WMCC etc.) maybe with some provision that the $$ be used for something explicit.  Then the local org (RCA in conjunction with the Forest Service) might contract back to "AMC Central" to hire their trail crew to do work.  This professional tail crew might offer ideas (like DR's carved steps) on how to accomplish something - they shouldn't just go ahead and do it without the ok of whoever has jurisdiction - not to say that never happens or that who ever has jurisdiction always takes the time to consider the ramifications before they say "whatever you say" to the trail crew.

Also the chapter climbing committees occasionally organizes "adopt a crag" type clean up days - usually in conjunction with the Access Fund.  Sometimes the "cleaning" crosses the line to "improvement" with some amateur step building and anchor installation.  Unlikely to happen at a high profile area like Rumney but could and has happened at the Quarries and Crow.

[Dave]

I just got off the phone with Tom Wagner who is the forest superviser for the WMNF. That work is being done by the AMC trail crew and if as described he did not sound very happy. This stair cutting has nothing to do with preventing erosion, it is all about making it an esier hike!! He is going to hike up there later this week to view the damage himself and will get back to me with his thoughts.

I could not have asked for a better or faster response to my phone call than that. I will be very interested in his thoughts after he views it himself and will post his response.

The AMC for trails in the northeast is in a similar situation to Nichols and bolts - they get blamed for everything regardless of who is at fault.  Rumney is USFS,  Franconia Notch (and a lot of Crawford and Whitehorse and Cathedral) is all state park.  The Quincy Quarries are MDC (or whatever DCR-ish thing it has morphed into).  That's not to say that the AMC is totally innocent either - they have a professional trail crew and extensive volunteer trail workers who do a lot of the maintenance on trails in these areas and it may well have been AMC people that did the damage that Dave is ranting about.  

[Dave]

All you people ever do is bieatch and moan...
You guys who are complaining about the AMC huts, need to get off your lazy a$$es, and take care of the problem.
A few crates of dynomite should do it.. 

Or a lighter and a cup of fuel! Cheaper than dynomite and more easily obtained!

[JBrochu]

I just got off the phone with Tom Wagner who is the forest superviser for the WMNF. That work is being done by the AMC trail crew and if as described he did not sound very happy. This stair cutting has nothing to do with preventing erosion, it is all about making it an esier hike!! He is going to hike up there later this week to view the damage himself and will get back to me with his thoughts.

I could not have asked for a better or faster response to my phone call than that. I will be very interested in his thoughts after he views it himself and will post his response.

Isn't the Falling Waters trail in Franconia Notch State Park? Does WMNF have jurisdiction there?

[Dave]

According to Tom only a very small portion is in the state park but the USFS oversees the trail work. That is why he is hiking up there to view the damage himself.
I will be very interested in his response and will post it here when he gets back to me
[/quote]
Isn't the Falling Waters trail in Franconia Notch State Park? Does WMNF have jurisdiction there?
[/quote]

[JBrochu]

Oh for some reason I thought the park boundaries stretched all the way to the ridgeline itself.

It will definetely be interesting to hear what he has to say.

There are some places on the trail where cutting steps could be argued as erosion prevention, since people skirt the steep rock and climb up through the trees on the side of the trail. In general I still wouldn't support cutting the stairs but at least there could be some reason beyond convenience. But if the spot you're describing is where I think it is they can't even make that argument.

 

[sneoh]

The local chapters - actually "committees" within a local chapter (which are somewhat autonomous) would tend to donate  $$ to local stewards (RCA, WMCC etc.) maybe with some provision that the $$ be used for something explicit.  Then the local org (RCA in conjunction with the Forest Service) might contract back to "AMC Central" to hire their trail crew to do work.  This professional trail crew might offer ideas (like DR's carved steps) on how to accomplish something - they shouldn't just go ahead and do it without the ok of whoever has jurisdiction - not to say that never happens or that who ever has jurisdiction always takes the time to consider the ramifications before they say "whatever you say" to the trail crew.

Thanks Eric.  Your response largely connected the dots for me and showed me the basic "chain of command".

[ELM]

I am not for a trail crew altering a classic trail like the Falling Waters; there is no reason for it and the trail should be kept as rough as it is. The Falling Waters is a great trail that does not see as much traffic as some. There are erosion issues but not giant ones and keeping people on that trail is easy. That said; across the notch on the Lonesome lake trail I saw work that was needed and was done very well. The Lonesome Lake trail at times is a erosion wash that has too few bars and steps that were falling apart. They added a few needed bars and re-did steps correctly. It was nice to see good work being done..but not good to hear about the Falling Waters... the worst part is you cannot fix what they did; just sad. 

[strandman]

All you people ever do is bieatch and moan...
You guys who are complaining about the AMC huts, need to get off your lazy a$$es, and take care of the problem.
A few crates of dynomite should do it.. 

Maybe the helicopters that bring in LP and bring out shit could do an airstrike ?

The hypocrisy of all this still astounds me. A bolt is worse than a hut  ??  It's all bullshit, you get a uniform and then you can fuck with the area, legal. The last thing that the forest or stat or whatever you want to call them cares about is climbers. They got their jobs and claim " enviromental"  BS

The damage done by climbers is SO minimal compared to other users it's almost comical, except it's not a joke.   imagine if i bought green's and charged like the huts ?   OH NO.. big diff     $$$65 to stay and climb at Green;s ?

[steve weitzler]

How ironic Dave. One of my daughters and I hiked up Mt. Clinton, down to Mizpah Hut, and back to the road today. It has been awhile since I have been up Crawford Path. That being said, I was surprised at the three signs I saw on the trail telling me about the fragility of plants and where to walk, and where not to drop my pack as to not kill any alpine plants. The more I thought about it I realized that Okay, not all hikers are as experienced or aware of our impact and just maybe the signs had some validity. Well, when I got within about a half mile of the hut the smell of sewage overwhelmed me. Sewage directly attributed to the hut. Upon arriving at the hut I asked the hutmaster if I could scribble my own sign and post it on a tree. He inquired what the sign was about. I told him that I want to warn others that they are entering a shit stink zone and to be careful not to smell the poopies. He laughed, I told him I was serious. Unfortunately Dave we are dumbing down most of our experiences. We have had this conversation before but I believe certain experiences should only be accessible to those that can access them, most certainly the wilderness. If you can't walk there don't go there. Making certain areas more accessible gives people a false sense of security. When the manufactured stairs end and they have to do some scrambling then they are screwed. Every time I go into the mountains I see them. They are one freak hail, snow, or thunder storm away from an epic. When they get hurt the reaction is to dumb down the experience even more. It's a vicious cycle. My guess is that someone got hurt or numerous people complained about the "condition" of the trail. Finally the "authorities" decided to fix the problem.

[eyebolter]

My complaint about the trail work at Rumney is that they spend resources ($$$$$$$) chipping a trail up to the upper Orange Crush that was not an erosion problem, and that only climbers used, while ignoring bad erosion problems like the trail to the Hinterlands.  Climbers can have all the input they want, the RCA was consulted every step of the way, then the FS hires the AMC and they do what they had planned anyway.   Your fee dollars at work.

[sneoh]

My complaint about the trail work at Rumney is that they spend resources ($$$$$$$) chipping a trail up to the upper Orange Crush that was not an erosion problem, and that only climbers used, while ignoring bad erosion problems like the trail to the Hinterlands.

Once again, Ward, my sentiments exactly.  I was surprised to see those OC steps yesterday, to be used by relatively few climbers who are headed to do the harder climbs on the left (uphill) end of OC.  I was disappointed by the current condition of the Hinterland trail when I went up there last month, after a long hiatus.  And as many may already know, given the number of quality moderate routes, The Hinterlands have deservedly become a popular destination.

Any idea for how we could bring about trail work @ Rumney which is more in line with the needs of the land and climbing community?

[Dave]

My complaint about the trail work at Rumney is that they spend resources ($$$$$$$) chipping a trail up to the upper Orange Crush that was not an erosion problem, and that only climbers used, while ignoring bad erosion problems like the trail to the Hinterlands.  Climbers can have all the input they want, the RCA was consulted every step of the way, then the FS hires the AMC and they do what they had planned anyway.   Your fee dollars at work.

Ward, More like beaurocratic stupidity at work!

Steve, Very well said. I can remember us having that conversation many times. There is nothing I would like more than to see the huts and all the crap they bring gone.
They have only cut a few stairs into the rock but I believe it is setting a very bad precedent. Go out and get in shape, learn how to live and travel in the mountains while respecting them and then go out and have fun. Please do not cut stairs in the mountains I love so some fat out of shape loser can get up there and throw thier cigarette buts everywhere while taking a shit and dumping a wad of toilet paper right next to the trail! (there was plenty of that along the trail to on Saturday)

Unfortunately Dave we are dumbing down most of our experiences. We have had this conversation before but I believe certain experiences should only be accessible to those that can access them, most certainly the wilderness. If you can't walk there don't go there. Making certain areas more accessible gives people a false sense of security. When the manufactured stairs end and they have to do some scrambling then they are screwed. Every time I go into the mountains I see them. They are one freak hail, snow, or thunder storm away from an epic. When they get hurt the reaction is to dumb down the experience even more. It's a vicious cycle. My guess is that someone got hurt or numerous people complained about the "condition" of the trail. Finally the "authorities" decided to fix the problem.

[JBrochu]

Cutting the stairs probaby has a lot more to do with the mindset of the trail crew boss than it does with any desire to help so called fat losers (apparantly fat people are the only ones throwing TP and cig butts everywhere) access the mountains easier.

Some people see a challenge and have a desire to meet it on natural terms, while others see the same challenge and want to defeat it by beating it into submission. That's probably not the best way to convey what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get my point.