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[lucky luke]

It just looks like me that Champ considers certain lines not to be real "trad"

For me it is not important if a route is trad or sport. I think that most people climb sport and do accessible route to sport climber. If they climb route accessible to trad, like remission, gypsy, diagonale, 5.8 variation of fun house... most of them will be in danger of injury or deaf. A trad climber can climb them without placing his life in danger. I just said that to put your life in danger in the first pitch of the book....you have to work a lot. To place the pro at the right place in remission...you also have to work a lot.

Placing a number of pro at the good place is a skill to learn. If all people know it, how can you understand that they are not climbing route other than the classic. So,  a route can be accessible to sport and you can place pro every where, or a route can not be accessible to sport and nobody climb it anymore. except some old trad.

I just asking where are those climber who can climb those route in trad. where is those people who will keep the "tradition"


 

[strandman]

Without opening the guidebook, just on the Thin Air wall, DMZ, Thinner, Turner Flake, Rapid Transit, Repulsion & Missing Link come immediately to mind, John!

i'll bite;

IMO , none of these routes are 3 star.  And Toe Crack is basically a pile, it wants to be Reppy's but it's not.  DMZ ? maybe a star, Thinner is OK, .......

Maybe I'm a harsh judge but i base 3 star on routes like  Children's Crusade and DD

[lucky luke]

IMO , none of these routes are 3 star.  And Toe Crack is basically a pile, it wants to be Reppy's but it's not. 

Who have the obligation to climb 3 stars. Toe crack, repulsion and pine tree is better climbing for me than moby.

I like moby, I climbed it too many time, I can describe pratically every move, where to place the pro and where the people make dangerous belay without knowing it. One crux of 5.7 to 5.8 per pitch with the same ambiance than triple s. Safer, I agree, even for trad climber.

[strandman]

Please, no one has to climb anything. I simply suggested what I think are the quality  routes.

Do you want to do shit climbs or good climbs? There are plenty of routes in NE that are great.  I climbed Remission as a rock climb. it sucked

The fact is Cathedral is better at the higher grades

I think Moby is the most overblown route in NH............ the WG is far better as well as Vertigo which is only a bit harder

[tradmanclimbz]

I still do not get all the fuss about trad climbing. It ain't rocket science. i lead the same grade regardless of if it is bolts or gear. the only time it becomes a big deal is when the gear sucks but that is the same with bolts or gear. If it is G rated weather it be gear or spurt there is little difference. if it is r rated and it is over good gear then it is no different than R rated over a bolt.

[sneoh]

Placing a number of pro at the good place is a skill to learn. If all people know it, how can you understand that they are not climbing route other than the classic. 

I think many people will take issue with you on your assertion that most, if not all, 5.8 to 5.10 classics are G-rated for protection.  It might almost be the case at Cathedral but I do not believe it is nearly universal.   

[DMan]

generalize, hypothesize, theorize, philosophize, repeat...

am I doing it right?

[lucky luke]

I still do not get all the fuss about trad climbing. It ain't rocket science. i lead the same grade regardless of if it is bolts or gear. the only time it becomes a big deal is when the gear sucks but that is the same with bolts or gear. If it is G rated weather it be gear or spurt there is little difference. if it is r rated and it is over good gear then it is no different than R rated over a bolt.

except that you don't have to decide where to place bolt. One of the plaisir is to decide that my rock number 4 will hold a fall of 20 feet and I will not be injure in the fall. so, I can climb 10 feet over my pro and find an other protection, take the risk to go over or bail (fall on the pro) That happen in trad when you use the technique describe in mountaineering freedom of the hill and when you hire a trad guide. The guy who invent friend climb 25 meters over a tricam. Many sport climber don't even have tricam. In a route, some good trad climber and I, even if I don't test it personally, can place two rp and pull over an hard move knowing how to put it togheter. it is not a 25Kn bolt for sure. A pro can be good at the end of a pitch and not good at the bottom. It is not a rocket science, but it is a lot of small think to understand, not to remember, to understand.  
When you did all the 5.7, all the 5.8 and over, you begin with the g rate, try some r rate and finish with x rate... after you climb a grade over, 5.7 to 5.8 for example. there are gem every where and some routes are not climbing because people will respect the climber, but because you want to know if you have the same knowledge of the first ascender.
For must people, it is the same and when they learn that there is an accident in recompense, the book or somewhere else...they stop climbing because they don't understand why and where they made a mistake. Unfortunately, in general, it is not those who said that it is easy who fall...but innocent newbye who think that there is no difference.    

[JakeDatc]

[tradmanclimbz]

and exactly where are all these noobs going splat who think that RP,s are as good as bolts?

[lucky luke]

and exactly where are all these noobs going splat who think that RP,s are as good as bolts?

A noobs will use a cam in a flake that can boke instead of two Rp's which divide the power of a fall in a longer surface of rock than a cam. For example, with a speologue hammer you can easily chop the rock (cam with small point of contact) and a mass will not break anythink. Two rp's at a distance of one feet will stress the rock with 500 pounds on each pro (number three rp's broke at 1000 pounds) on a long surface (pattern of dispersion of the energy in rock). A cam will put 1000 pounds on the weaker side of the rock like a speologue hammer.

so, your nob will died and the trad will be safe. It is not a rocket science, but when you have to decide in a pump situation that two rp's is better than one cam...it is your life that you play. I agree that many of us will not try it, maybe me the first, but still: a good trad leader most be able to think about it.

so, the pleasure is not to go to the top as soon as you can. it is to plan the route and your physical skill for the route. I can work all route in cathedral in one month and be able to climb it after. If I don't work it, I will have to train and each route is going to be a personal victory when I will try it and make it.     

[strandman]

and exactly where are all these noobs going splat who think that RP,s are as good as bolts?

RP's CAN be as good   

[DGoguen]

Champoing

A noobs will use a cam in a flake that can boke

so, your nob will died and the trad will be safe. It is not a rocket science,
[/quote]

Yeeeeehaaaaa, the good guys win again!!!!!

[RagingTurk]

So far very entertaining. Please carry on.

[The other tomcat]

OK, I must protest. I think Turner Flake is three stars !! ***

DMZ is a black hole.

Pray continue...