I don't think you were crass, Tradman. I appreciate that they are helping, many times as volunteers, but their horrible general fitness and lack of practical sense in the mountains is really a problem. I don't know how it can be helped except for the climbing organizations to have regular training days with them. By getting them to hike the trails regularly and work with climbers, it would help get them in shape and trust in the available skills. If I ever get hurt, unless I am totally messed up with spinal injuries (finish me off with a rock in that case), I hope my fellow climbers can get me out before the fat squad shows up. I have always said, if I get hurt and lost in the mountains, I want Shimberg to be the one looking for me