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Author Topic: Moby Grape Rescue  (Read 4137 times)

lucky luke

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2011, 06:28:29 PM »

I still remember a time, about 30 years ago, when I was doing Moby Grape with Roger Martin, who did the 1st ascent with Joe Cote. We were in t shirts, just below that funny pitch where you stem right and reach out for that huge flake, (just below the finger of fate). Anyway, this freak thunderstorm came in suddenly, and hit hard with hail and lightning. The pitch became a waterfall, and the temperature dropped about 30 degrees.

We were getting a little worried, as we were shivering violently.

We got up O.K.

I wonder if we had cell phones -- would we have been tempted to use them ?  I doubt it.

Roger, in particular, was a pretty tough nut.

If you want to make your adventure more committing--leave the cell phone at home, and cut down on potential rescues. Just saying.

or agree to use it just for real death treath situation,
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tinker

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2011, 07:39:06 PM »

What is the Rescue protocol?  I assume if the call comes in NH fish and game have to respond.  The mountain rescue is all volunteer right?(and let me just say thanks for what you guys do, I'll try and promise to not call ;)).  Any rescue is a risk analysis, do we put people at risk to save others ?  I just think of different rescue agencies take for instance the coast guard.  You have a dead body on board, tough shit.  You lost auxiliary power but have a sail and are 100 miles offshore, tough shit.  The pumps are keeping up with the leak, call us when the survival suits come on.  You really need to be in serious trouble for them to warrant the manpower and resources required to initiate a rescue.  So it could go like this,"you guys are anchored well"?  yes.  O.K. well do some warming exercises every few hours hug each other and wait for daybreak.  I also feel that the average taxpayer should not have to cover the cost of the rescue in a lot of these situations.  I am just glad I never did anything dumb or over my head when I fist started climbing. ::)
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JakeDatc

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2011, 08:42:45 PM »


"We are seeing multiple rescues every weekend," said N.H. Fish and Game Conservation Officer..."


I truly wonder if this isn't a result of selling climbing gear next to bikes and kayaks.

Because this hasn't been happening at REI,EMS, etc for decades.....    blame the user not the supplier.   Cars have been crashing for 100 years.. it must be Ford's fault.   

My post was somewhat rhetorical, but since you provided an analogy I'll clarify: it's not the box-store distribution scheme, but more of the general attitude that climbing is now some lifestyle activity that is no more difficult get involved in than staying upright on two wheels.

Here comes the BITD crap part of my argument - a little over 25 years ago I walked into IME and basically told them to hook me up. They politely refuse to sell me anything until I took at least some basic lessons. Seemed stupid at the time, then I learned all the fun and exciting ways to kill myself and realized they might have been a lot smarter than I gave them credit for.

Well,  REI has been around since 1938  and has been selling camping, climbing, backpack etc gear to whoever will buy it.   They are a business, it's their job to make money.  Sending away customers is not a great business model.     Rock gym's who crank out belay lessons in 15 minutes and tell you that you're good to go I think are much more to blame than stores that sell gear. 
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frik

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2011, 08:53:14 AM »

I think cell phones do have a significant part in this type of drama.
I wonder if they would have attempted an undertaking like moby if they hadn't had a cell phone.
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DWT

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2011, 12:39:46 PM »

It's not the outdoor stores, the cell phones, or the climbing gyms.  Personal responsibility is what's in short supply lately. 
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pappy

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2011, 12:57:12 PM »

I loathe cell phones in any situation. I never had one until '04 when the board insisted I had to. They have zero presence in climbing. A number of years ago (93?) GA and I went up to Canada to bag some stuff. We called the MEC in Calgary in May and they said conditions were awesome, by the time we got there in early July, um, not so much. It had in fact snowed the entire time since our call. We went to the N Face of Cavell first. The rangers tried to discourage us. After wading through 665wder up to my neck up high, I concurred. Then we tried the NE on Howse, but we got slammed by another storm and Greg caught a 50 lb. rock in the leg, so denied again. Looking for a consolation prize, we decided to do the E. Ridge of Temple with rope, rack, Gore-tex on our back, one tool apiece and no screws. We were approaching the base of the gully up to the summit ridge, and it slid, leaving blue ice. Oops. screwed. We retreated and about 1AM couldn't figure the next rap, and spent one of the coldest nights of my life stretched out on a ledge.

GA went back the next year, planning to bivy, and told me later his partner called the weather service from the bivy to get the forecast. I was aghast. If someone takes a cell phone on a climb with me I'll throw it off and then kick their ass. It misses the point, completely.
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sp115

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 01:59:34 PM »

It's not the outdoor stores, the cell phones, or the climbing gyms.  Personal responsibility is what's in short supply lately. 

I wouldn't argue with that viewpoint, but somehow the paradigm got shifted. From a knowledge requirement/safety perspective climbing is more closely related to scuba than biking, but you would never know that from where and how you buy the gear.
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frik

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2011, 02:37:41 PM »

Pap - tell me how cell phones have zero presence in climbing when these guys use a cell phone to call for help? ...and they aren't the only ones.... this seams to be a recurrent theme. I'm not saying that cell phones are the only factor nor possibly the biggest factor. But i do wonder if some people wouldn't get into the trouble they do, if salvation wasn't such an easy option.


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JakeDatc

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2011, 04:43:22 PM »

I want to know why Pap thought that a weather report would last for 2 months and  then wondered why he got fucked when he ignored ranger advice to not go into bad conditions  ::)   

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M_Sprague

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »

I want to know why Pap thought that a weather report would last for 2 months and  then wondered why he got fucked when he ignored ranger advice to not go into bad conditions  ::)   


Long term oxygen deprivation? It is quite common with mountaineer types, Jake. Many of them seem to get..err, a little peculiar.  :P
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DWT

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2011, 05:08:42 PM »

It's not the outdoor stores, the cell phones, or the climbing gyms.  Personal responsibility is what's in short supply lately. 

I wouldn't argue with that viewpoint, but somehow the paradigm got shifted. From a knowledge requirement/safety perspective climbing is more closely related to scuba than biking, but you would never know that from where and how you buy the gear.

Devil's advocate ...  Where and how should we be buying gear?
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little lil

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2011, 07:07:10 PM »

I think you should make your own...
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Lilly V.

sp115

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2011, 07:15:57 PM »

It's not the outdoor stores, the cell phones, or the climbing gyms.  Personal responsibility is what's in short supply lately. 

I wouldn't argue with that viewpoint, but somehow the paradigm got shifted. From a knowledge requirement/safety perspective climbing is more closely related to scuba than biking, but you would never know that from where and how you buy the gear.

Devil's advocate ...  Where and how should we be buying gear?

I would humbly suggest patronizing the local stores that support climbing in the areas you climb.
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MT

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2011, 08:41:04 PM »

Can't really blame the gear sellers. I'm not sure that cell phones are to blame either, although they clearly give folks an easy out when the $hit hits the fan. I've heard so many stories about folks heading out to the local crag w/ a close line. Really, how many of us out there don't have a "BITD, I was such a noob, I <insert dumbass epic here>" story?

Here's my theory....with the internet, digital cameras and helmet cams, we just hear about this stuff more and in vivid technicolor? The relative rate of "epicing" (one man's epic is another mans dumbass noob mistake) is the same, we just hear about it more. And there's more folks at the cliff then 20-30 yrs ago increasing the absolute #s of epics.

All this said, I still stick up for the right of any slub w/ a keyboard to take these guys to task. Hopefully, they will read this and be humbled a bit. Their adventure ended happy. It could've been a lot worse then some mild hypothermia.

Be safe....and leave those cell phones at home. Embrace the adventure.

Cheers,

Mike
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Moby Grape Rescue
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2011, 09:54:30 PM »

No one is saying that we did not epic BINTD. We are saying that we did not call for a rescue and there was Not a rescue unless someone got hurt. So yes in this case the cell phone is 100% responsible for this rescue. Without the phone they would have been forced to make different choices. They may well have still epiced or even goten hurt or dead but there would have been no call out untill they were reported by a 3rd party as overdue. knowing that changes the way you think at least to a certain degree.

To the question of buying gear,  anyone should be able to buy any damn piece of climbing gear they want and have the right to learn on their own if they wish. the last person I would trust for advice is the kid behind the counter at a the gear store.. Few years back one of those wet nosed know it all's tried to tell me that it was unsafe to sling my hex with 8mm cord and that I had to buy that crappy spectra junk that does not like to hold knotts , detiorates quickly with UV and basic use and costs over a buck a foot.. Kid never even placed a hex in his life most likly and I have been climbing longer than that snot nosed dickless sibling of a pox infested siphlitic two dollar baton rough whore has even been on this planet .....  8)
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