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Author Topic: Band M Ledge  (Read 5568 times)

DGoguen

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2012, 08:55:39 AM »

My guess, and it's just that, is that allowing people to drive through his construction pit/operation is the real issue with the insurance company. It's not even gated.
People are fast forwarding to the recreational liability issue and beyond.
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apbt1976

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2012, 09:17:08 AM »

I told him we don't have access problems in the Mount Washington Valley because the climbing is all on public land.

You don't have the problem yet. I think that bolting is not allowed in the white mountain any more.

As Slovasse said
Quote
Owners are allowed to post no trespassing signs on their current use property but receive even more of a tax discount for allowing access

So, we have a proof that the owner make money when they give access to there proprerty. They place bolt on the cliff, so it is a control activity. The climber fail as the bolt turn in the spit is the careless situation. We can sue some one with that.

I agree that a found access is good for sport. If you buy the cliff, you still have to pay in insurance and you will need money to do it. You will ask for money at the entry of the cliff as they do in Kamouraska in Quebec. You will have a budget, etc. this is great for sport climbing.

The point is: if there is no bolt and hiking trail...just the cliff. How can you sue a owner because he keep his cliff natural. What mistake do he make if a piece of rock fail.  A bad bolt is a clear evidence that the owner don't take care of his site, but a natural one...like Mt Washington... there is no mistake.

Except for the guide. If you guide some one, you have the responsability of your client. For a very long time, there is two kind of guide: those who bring you in a very restricted area (gym, some sport cliff) and those who bring you in the mountain. Those who don't take risk and those who show you how to avoid the danger of the mountain.

My climbing career is coming to an end (not yet Dman  :P) . I'm getting hold I think. For me, I will be able to find enought challenge in remote area to my plaisir. I just feel sorry for the young who will have to go trought an access found association to find a cliff where they will be allow to climb, when the solution of making a distinction for insurance and land is so easy.     
Champ - a few points:

Bolting is allowed in the Whites, just not in the designated wilderness portion.
Also, getting a tax break from the government is not the same thing as charging money from users of your property, which then creates a contract. If the land were to be bought by climbers/ access fund, it would then most likely be given to the national forest like Rumney was, or could be controlled by a private non profit like the Pendergrass-Murray Recreational Preserve in Kentucky which would be supported by donations not fees.

Just what we need another Rumney. Perfectly good forest with wooden Escalators leading to Bolted routes. Freakin humans and there good ideas. MWOBS!!

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pappy

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 10:26:22 AM »

I tend to have a simple, direct mind on this sort of thing:There is no excuse, ever, for a climber to sue if they get hurt. I don't care if a piece of equipment fails, someone chucks a rock off the top, anything. you are assuming the risk of injury or death, period, and the risk to access is too great to ever justify it. Down south we made it pretty widely known that if someone did ever file such a suit they would be public enemy number one, shunned, abused, and if possible beat the crap out of them--a policy I think we should take nationwide.
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strandman

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »

Am I missing something ? What does the closure of band m have to do with bolting ????
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sneoh

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2012, 03:06:47 PM »

I was just wondering the same thing, John.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

z.st.jules

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »

So what I'm gathering here is (I believe it was Champ who suggested) that if an understanding of the differences between sport and traditional climbing was established to courts and insurance companies than coleman couldn't be sued for only allowing trad climbing on his property because it means he's left the cliff in its natural state.
If im missing something let me know but I dont see that as a solution...
Thats like saying if i dont cut my grass on my front lawn and someone trips and is injured i couldn't be sued but if i did cut my grass i could be sued.

There must be a more generalized law that could be put into effect. I still dont see why it can't be as simple as if climb at your own risk signs are up coleman is safe from being sued.
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apbt1976

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2012, 03:59:52 PM »

Maybe he just wants his own personal natural climbing wall....
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M_Sprague

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2012, 04:09:37 PM »

Just what we need another Rumney. Perfectly good forest with wooden Escalators leading to Bolted routes.

Your prejudice is making you see things. I never said to make Band M like Rumney (though I do think a few aspects of it would be an improvement, like modern anchors instead of rat's nests or death triangles, and yes, maybe even some stairs if it made it so people didn't have to go through the business) I was referring to the land transfer. I could get into it with you about the wooden stairs up to Armed and Dangerous, as I think criticism of it is short sighted and stupid, but that is a bit off topic.

Quote
Freakin humans and there good ideas. MWOBS!!

That's OK. We can ignore your ideas.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 04:12:47 PM by M_Sprague »
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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

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apbt1976

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »

Just what we need another Rumney. Perfectly good forest with wooden Escalators leading to Bolted routes.

Your prejudice is making you see things. I never said to make Band M like Rumney (though I do think a few aspects of it would be an improvement, like modern anchors instead of rat's nests or death triangles, and yes, maybe even some stairs if it made it so people didn't have to go through the business) I was referring to the land transfer. I could get into it with you about the wooden stairs up to Armed and Dangerous, as I think criticism of it is short sighted and stupid, but that is a bit off topic.

Quote
Freakin humans and there good ideas. MWOBS!!

That's OK. We can ignore your ideas.

I don't state my ideas thinking or hoping everyone will agree. To be honest i 100% expect very few will agree if any.

It is pretty much a fact very few do as all one has to do is look around at all the man made crap in so called "Protected Natural Wilderness Areas" and it is very clear what the majority wants.

My thoughts and ideas are just that "mine" my intention is not to piss anyone off, come across as elitist or anything of the sort. I share my thoughts as they are my thoughts and only with the intention that it offer a perspective not so often voiced an in my opinion in much need of a voice!!
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lucky luke

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2012, 05:51:18 PM »


Thats like saying if i dont cut my grass on my front lawn and someone trips and is injured i couldn't be sued but if i did cut my grass i could be sued.

There must be a more generalized law that could be put into effect. I still dont see why it can't be as simple as if climb at your own risk signs are up coleman is safe from being sued.

If you don't cut your grass and make a party on your backyard...some one can sue you if he is injure. There is two think: the activity: climbing, and the development: using bolt. For the activity, there is no problem: climb at your own risk. For the planning and development, any modification of the land can be a reason to sue the owner. In climbing, we have at one side, no modification (no bolt), and at the other side full bolting area. it is the difference with no planning and development of a cliff.

In which side Band M is it? I think that climber wdho like bolt is making a planning to open routes and that planning is done with the authorisation of the owner if he know what ever the manner that people come to his land whit the intend to bolt first free ascent. In that case, the access found is very good because he have to take money from the climber to pay the cliff and to pay insurance. In Quebec, the government pay the hspitalisation. So, it is easier. In US, ther insurance will be costly because it is not all climber who is safe in a climb.

But in a place like stair mountain, I don't have any problem to have no development, no planning...and we still can climb. To save our life, put a bolt or a piton here and there. But not as a development, as a no choice to do it.   

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lucky luke

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2012, 06:08:37 PM »

I tend to have a simple, direct mind on this sort of thing:There is no excuse, ever, for a climber to sue if they get hurt. I don't care if a piece of equipment fails, someone chucks a rock off the top, anything. you are assuming the risk of injury or death, period, and the risk to access is too great to ever justify it.

I just agree totaly with you. But if you read in the injuries, medical, training section, the post on entire route collapse, ther is a guy who climb there thinking that the place was safe and decide not to climb any more.

What I want to say is if you are a trad climber, you learn to protect your ass before making 5.11 move. In a gym, you go for it. some new bye go to there limit to climb hard and don't have the same appreciation of the danger than us. Leading 5.7 when you climb 5.10 in a gym is easy and dangerous. Climbing 5.7 when you follow 5.8 in the mountain is hard and safe.

When they sold climbing in a school class, they want some think safe. Children under eighteen, thirty some times, don't have the judgement to take the responsability of doing a dangerous sport, the responsability of an acccident. I wrote a post previously on the level of danger. The answer of some peole are very different than the one that was said in that post...and some are long time climber.

The idea that climbing is safe if you learn correctly is totaly false. Climbing is safe if you have the good attitude, at a good moment and with the good physical condition. I know some guide who still teach that mentality. When I climb with Base it is one of the think that I appreciate as he have a very good appreciation of the danger and respect the cliff.

"Solid as a rock: who ever coined that never climb" 
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strandman

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2012, 06:33:03 PM »

How many people have climbed ay band M ?  I have frequented it a fair amount and it's very impressive crag with all kinds of climbs. It is not a sport area and has very few fixed routes. It's been pretty much the same for 30 years.

I agree with mark that it need updating, maybe that would help things ?
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DLottmann

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2012, 08:20:27 PM »

-42 karma Champ? Keep up the thoughtful posts.

@ apbt1976, Is that a shot at the Mount Washington Observatory? “MWOBS”. Are people still complaining about a weather observatory on the summit of the rock pile since the 1930’s?

LOL...
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apbt1976

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2012, 10:08:34 PM »

-42 karma Champ? Keep up the thoughtful posts.

@ apbt1976, Is that a shot at the Mount Washington Observatory? “MWOBS”. Are people still complaining about a weather observatory on the summit of the rock pile since the 1930’s?

LOL...

I hardly call it a shot. As i said expressing my opinion is not about taking shots at people. But if people insist on taking it that way that is on them and i could really give a shit at the end of the day. I think my last post on the topic was pretty clear as to my agenda and my opinion is not meant to and has nothing to do with taking shots at people. I thought i was also clear it also has nothing to do with me thinking my way is the right way  for the majority.

Simply it has to do with what i think. Do i wish more would start thinking the same way "sure" do it think they will "no time soon". When it is begins to have a affect directly on their lives i bet they will start caring real quick and have a shit ton to say about it all the sudden at that.

It's kinda like everyone wanting a green car all the sudden that gets 40 plus miles to the gallon. Or the residents of Hiroshima Japan calling bullshit on their government and the nuclear science experts now that they have lost everything.

Humans are very short sighted! Add to that selfish at the core and yes i think we fuck up as people all over the fucking place and don't even see it.
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DGoguen

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Re: Band M Ledge
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2012, 10:40:05 AM »

i think we fuck up as people all over the fucking place

@ apbt1976    Seriously?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 07:35:58 AM by DGoguen »
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