Author Topic: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range  (Read 1445 times)

Offline David_G48

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Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« on: March 09, 2012, 03:08:49 pm »
Yesterday I was at a meeting with the Forest Service and it was brought up that bolts had been placed at Big Rock Cave and as a designated wilderness area it is a violation. In a wilderness designated area only existing fixed gear and anchors can be replaced and if bolted it must be by hand, no power equipment is allowed. It would be nice if whom ever placed the bolts removed them and returned the area at the base to its natural state. It does not matter whether or not we agree with the rules, if we ignore them it will only cause a more restrictive environment. The Forest Service is trying its best to accommodate us while maintaining the wilderness areas  in a pristine state.
If someone decides to remove the bolts as it has been directed please lets not have someone else put them back up. We do not as a group of responsible climbers want that kind of focus on us.
Thank You
David G

Offline strandman

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 03:26:31 pm »
Assuming it was power bolted ?

Offline JBro

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 04:24:29 pm »
Yesterday I was at a meeting with the Forest Service and it was brought up that bolts had been placed at Big Rock Cave and as a designated wilderness area it is a violation. In a wilderness designated area only existing fixed gear and anchors can be replaced and if bolted it must be by hand, no power equipment is allowed. It would be nice if whom ever placed the bolts removed them and returned the area at the base to its natural state. It does not matter whether or not we agree with the rules, if we ignore them it will only cause a more restrictive environment. The Forest Service is trying its best to accommodate us while maintaining the wilderness areas  in a pristine state.
If someone decides to remove the bolts as it has been directed please lets not have someone else put them back up. We do not as a group of responsible climbers want that kind of focus on us.
Thank You
David G

I completely disagree with the bolded premise. Not saying it's true in this particular case, but sometimes sticking up your middle finger and carrying on about your business is the only dignified path.

edit: I think I'm going to start liberating wilderness areas of their trail signs. They are certainly more intrusive to far more people than a bolt up on a cliff here or there.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:27:48 pm by JBrochu »
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Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 04:56:24 pm »
Well, I completely disagree with you, JBochu. Occasionally it gets ridiculous, like up on El Cap, but some wilderness where the hand of man is kept to a minimum is fine with me. You can argue about trail signs etc., but they are somewhat  different issues. A few trail signs probably help lesson other impact. There are times for civil disobedience, but I don't think this is one of them.

There is no shortage of boulders and crags to put up routes without fucking around with the wilderness areas, and you can climb there anyway if you just go no trace. This is coming from someone who loves to develop crags, bolt and scrub.

What kind of bolts are they?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbrait

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 04:59:27 pm »
Assuming it was power bolted ?

It doesn't matter how they are put in, John, if they are new. Both ways are out. With replacements it does... only hand drilling for that
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbrait

Offline strandman

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 05:08:44 pm »
I forgot about that bull- you can only REPLACE by hand....

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 07:03:20 pm »
Gotta say I may be disagreeing with you Mark, wilderness designation is completely arbitrary.  You and I are lucky in that Owl's is outside the designation.  Why?  Who the hell knows.  Great Gulf is "wilderness" and Owl's cliff isn't?
 
I'm not defending whoever bolted in a designated "wilderness area."   They should not have done it, period.  I'm just saying that such designations are completely arbitrary.  And if the FS is really into "wilderness' then get rid of all the trails and everything.  Great gulf trail looks more like a highway than a "wilderness" to me.


Offline slevasse

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:40 pm »
... but sometimes sticking up your middle finger and carrying on about your business is the only dignified path.

edit: I think I'm going to start liberating wilderness areas of their trail signs. They are certainly more intrusive to far more people than a bolt up on a cliff here or there.

Having a trail sign in a wilderness area and a bolt are completely different things.   You pull a sign and in within a week or two you would never know it was ever there and the landscape isn't permanently changed.  A bolt when pulled whether the hole is filled or not has permanently changed that rock.  Also a bolt only helps rock climbers.  Signs help rock climbers, hikers, lost gumbies, etc...  Not that I am against bolting but sticking up your middle finger and carrying on will only ruin things for many more people in the long run.

Offline JBro

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 08:40:51 pm »
... but sometimes sticking up your middle finger and carrying on about your business is the only dignified path.

edit: I think I'm going to start liberating wilderness areas of their trail signs. They are certainly more intrusive to far more people than a bolt up on a cliff here or there.

Having a trail sign in a wilderness area and a bolt are completely different things.   You pull a sign and in within a week or two you would never know it was ever there and the landscape isn't permanently changed.  A bolt when pulled whether the hole is filled or not has permanently changed that rock.  Also a bolt only helps rock climbers. Signs help rock climbers, hikers, lost gumbies, etc... Not that I am against bolting but sticking up your middle finger and carrying on will only ruin things for many more people in the long run.

That's precisely the point! There isn't supposed to be "help" in Designated Wilderness Areas. When they where first drafting the climbing policy, they went as far as to say webbing left on a tree was a fixed instillation, and thus illegal. Rules like that would prevent lawful ascents of tons of awesome alpine routes. Meanwhile, Wilderness Areas are full of signs, cairns, and for God sakes painted arrows all over trees and rocks.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:43:06 pm by JBrochu »
Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 09:18:02 pm »
Gotta say I may be disagreeing with you Mark, wilderness designation is completely arbitrary. 

Of course it is somewhat arbitrary, but no more than deciding to wear your red shirt today instead of the blue.

----
I don't think the actual bolt hole is of major concern, but rather the sense that the bolt gives that is man made. I agree about the help aspect of trails, signs etc., but the managers are obviously trying to balance out a pure wilderness with some allowed use. A few trails and signs is their balance point. It seems to work fairly well. True wilderness from an anthropomorphic perspective would also be completely free of government control, no rules, fees and regulations, but that is not going to happen nor would it be sustainable. Obviously our Designated Wilderness is only going to be an approximation with somewhat arbitrary boundaries.

 I think some spots of wilderness are more and more important as we  humans get more alienated from  the conditions that we originally developed in. I also think it is very important for the health of the planet and not just in a bio-ecological way
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbrait

Offline frik

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 01:06:24 pm »
Even though JBrochu is a known thug, he does have a point. Either something is wilderness or it isn't.
Put a trail though it - sorry it isn't a wilderness anymore.

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 06:01:29 pm »
Just putting it out there, but the route at Big Rock apparently came up when the AF contacted the FS about BM ledge. 

If whoever bolted out there would like to PM me at wardandpaula@yahoo.com I will keep you confidential.  Or, you can send me a note with letters cut out of magazines and no return address to: Ward Smith, 105 Montague Road, Wendell MA 01379.


Offline radair

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 09:18:43 am »
Just putting it out there, but the route at Big Rock apparently came up when the AF contacted the FS about BM ledge...
I'm a bit confused why the Access Fund would contact the Forest Service about Band M, which does not even abut National Forest land?

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Big Rock Cave Wonalancet/Sandwich Mountain Range
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 02:49:40 pm »
I have no idea, but that is what i was told.  Maybe seeing if they were interested in it.