Author Topic: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass  (Read 266 times)

Offline DaveR

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Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« on: September 20, 2016, 12:50:16 PM »
The 3 two bolt anchors at the top of the slabs on the right hand end are no good! The other day a party was top roping and the bolts were moving in the holes as they were lowering. Apparently they have wiggled for a while and someone just added glue around the top to try and fix them.

These are glue-ins that were placed at the request of the state to prevent erosion and tree damage by people that have no clue how to bolt! The holes are not even drilled to the proper depth so the shaft of the bolt stick out about 1/2".

I hope to within the next few weeks pull those bolts and replace them with 1/2" glue-ins. Until I can fix them, BACK THEM UP!!!

Ward or Mark, do you guys have any deals going with suppliers on glue? It's been a while since I bought any. I used to get a discount at a place that is now out of business. Please send me a pm.

Thanks
Dave R.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 12:59:45 PM by DaveR »

Offline JoeC

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 07:22:29 PM »
Ome of those has been wiggling around for a lottle while.  I was going to replace some othet bolts there but seems i dont have the privilege to do so.

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 10:05:40 PM »
Dave, I just got some from Toolup.com. I don't know which gun you have. I use the 8 oz cartridges http://www.toolup.com/ITW-Ramset-Red-Head-A7-8-epcon-Epcon-A7-8-Fl-Oz-Cartridge The 10 oz ones work in a regular caulking gun, but they don't work as well and are more expensive. Both sizes use the same nozzles. I'd go with Bolt Products SS glue-ins instead of the galvanized ones we used to use. Get in touch with Dave Quinn and he should be able to get them for you and they are only a little more than the galvanized ones. I like the heavier 8mm ones (Breaking Strain-76kN, 5/8" holes) rather than the 6mm (Breaking Strain-40kN, 1/2" holes) so they don't look so much like coat hanger wire even though the 6mm ones are very strong. They are like thicker Wave bolts but they are twisted where they go into the rock. If Dave is traveling and can't get them to you right away, I can spare 6 until he can get more. Give me a shout.
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Offline DaveR

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2016, 10:23:42 PM »
Ome of those has been wiggling around for a lottle while.  I was going to replace some othet bolts there but seems i dont have the privilege to do so.

Dealing with the state is a cluster and it is against the law to replace fixed gear there! When the big mess of chain above intertwine needed to be fixed it disappeared just like magic and 2 new 1/2" glue-ins just happened to show up the same day! Amazing! ;)  :angel:
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 10:32:55 PM by DaveR »

Offline DaveR

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2016, 10:31:45 PM »
Dave, I just got some from Toolup.com. I don't know which gun you have. I use the 8 oz cartridges http://www.toolup.com/ITW-Ramset-Red-Head-A7-8-epcon-Epcon-A7-8-Fl-Oz-Cartridge The 10 oz ones work in a regular caulking gun, but they don't work as well and are more expensive. Both sizes use the same nozzles. I'd go with Bolt Products SS glue-ins instead of the galvanized ones we used to use. Get in touch with Dave Quinn and he should be able to get them for you and they are only a little more than the galvanized ones. I like the heavier 8mm ones (Breaking Strain-76kN, 5/8" holes) rather than the 6mm (Breaking Strain-40kN, 1/2" holes) so they don't look so much like coat hanger wire even though the 6mm ones are very strong. They are like thicker Wave bolts but they are twisted where they go into the rock. If Dave is traveling and can't get them to you right away, I can spare 6 until he can get more. Give me a shout.

Thanks Mark, That is exactly what I have been using for glue. I have been using that for quite a long time and really like it. I just used the last 7 galvanized bolts I had on a local project. Someone who will go unnamed has offered to pay for the bolts and glue. Could you message me with a supplier contact for the bolts.
Dave
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 10:34:27 PM by DaveR »

Offline M_Sprague

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 11:52:47 AM »
It sounds like the holes were not cleaned properly. For people inexperienced with bolting, it is important with all bolts, but especially with glue-ins to clean the holes very well so the glue can seep into the pores of the rock. I use both a blow bulb and tube brush alternating  several times at least until nothing comes out. When shooting the glue in one needs to start with the tip of the nozzle all the way in the back and slowly draw it out as you pump so as not to leave air pockets. Experience will tell you how much to put in to not waste too much, but over fill rather than under. It should squeeze out as you twist the bolt in. You then neaten it up with your finger, making sure there are no air pockets or gaps at the surface level for water to collect in. With a new nozzle you also want to prepump some glue through into a rag or something to make sure the glue is mixing properly before shooting it into the hole. Those galvanized bolts should be countersunk a little. The Wave and Bolt Products ones are not countersunk (maybe just a tiny bit for aesthetics, but that makes it harder to cut them off and core drill if they get damaged and have to be replaced) The Wave and Bolt Products glue-ins are designed to have a little spring action against the sides of the hole to keep them from sliding out of overhangs while the glue is drying so they need to be tapped in with a hammer during the last part of the insertion. Ideally the hammer should be SS also or a wood, rubber or plastic mallet to not introduce carbon into the surface of the bolt (according to the manufacturer) The Wave bolt manufacturers actually have a handy SS tool that fits over the bolt for this purpose which also helps maintain the shape of the bolt eye as it is hammered in. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 11:55:53 AM by M_Sprague »
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

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Offline DaveR

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Re: Bad anchors at Crow Hill, Mass
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 01:29:43 PM »
It sounds like the holes were not cleaned properly. For people inexperienced with bolting, it is important with all bolts, but especially with glue-ins to clean the holes very well so the glue can seep into the pores of the rock. I use both a blow bulb and tube brush alternating  several times at least until nothing comes out. When shooting the glue in one needs to start with the tip of the nozzle all the way in the back and slowly draw it out as you pump so as not to leave air pockets. Experience will tell you how much to put in to not waste too much, but over fill rather than under. It should squeeze out as you twist the bolt in. You then neaten it up with your finger, making sure there are no air pockets or gaps at the surface level for water to collect in. With a new nozzle you also want to prepump some glue through into a rag or something to make sure the glue is mixing properly before shooting it into the hole. Those galvanized bolts should be countersunk a little. The Wave and Bolt Products ones are not countersunk (maybe just a tiny bit for aesthetics, but that makes it harder to cut them off and core drill if they get damaged and have to be replaced) The Wave and Bolt Products glue-ins are designed to have a little spring action against the sides of the hole to keep them from sliding out of overhangs while the glue is drying so they need to be tapped in with a hammer during the last part of the insertion. Ideally the hammer should be SS also or a wood, rubber or plastic mallet to not introduce carbon into the surface of the bolt (according to the manufacturer) The Wave bolt manufacturers actually have a handy SS tool that fits over the bolt for this purpose which also helps maintain the shape of the bolt eye as it is hammered in.

Left a message for DQ Mark. I need to get a bunch more bolts for a couple of projects but if he does not get right back to me maybe I can snag 6 from you and replace them later.

Please listen to what Mark is saying. You have a huge responsibility when you put in bolts for public use to make sure they are done the right way! People just assume they are good! When I pointed out to the group that their anchors were wiggling in the holes they were clueless. With a good bit drilling a 1/2 hole in granite just takes a couple of minutes. It takes WAY LONGER to clean the hole properly. Also the proper mixing of the epoxy is just as critical.