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Author Topic: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks  (Read 6735 times)

DLottmann

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 12:18:24 AM »

Ah, I see. I read that somewhere in the comments of one of the articles from someone claiming to be nearby the time of the accident, and must have taken it as gospel.

If that is true, it hints to running the rope directly through the sling vrs. using a carabiner... Another supposed witness thought they saw a frayed sling which would also support the nylon meltdown scenario...

I'd like to say that type of error can't happen these days but I'd also like to think people have evolved beyond the "girth-hitch 6 shoulder length slings together" mentality as well...

Hopefully the truth comes to light and we can do what we can to prevent a similar tragedy in the future.
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steve weitzler

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 12:48:50 PM »

DMAN's assessment is exactly what I thought of at first.  If someone in fact did see a frayed sling I am betting they put the rope directly through the sling with no biners and eventually the heat melted the sling and she fell. I have seen that scenario more than once in almost 40 years of climbing. In fact I saw that once and mentioned it to the two young guys who were belaying a toprope (rope through slings). Their response was "you do things your way and we will do things our way."  I got the hell out of there as fast as I could as I did not want to be the one mopping up their remains.
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lucky luke

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 02:19:32 PM »

If i comment, i wil get more negatives than Champ... Climbing is dangerous... You  gotta pay attention and KNOW what the fuck you are doing.   If a TR fails ????
Hard to be as negatives as me. I fight so much those kind of accident in Quebec. Sport reality, but we can't say it. althought it can happen to trad climber, I am always mad at those who change what they said to make money with the accident: as the best guide you can ever had (me! me! me! I know what to do) or as some one who want to promote climbing for tourism. Yes climbing is dangerous.

I was thinking last night and thought that I began to walk on my four member around six or nine month, do my first step between nine and 12 months, run soon after and, still at 52..., I can slip on a patch of ice or wet floor or broke and ankle as I walk in a hole. When I saw people climbing in a gym and thinking that they are good after fifty or sixty hours of climbing and waiting in six month or a year and that I can slip as I walk...I understand that some thing go wrong. I get sick.

Althoug tope rope is easy, maybe the gunk is for trad. In any case: always keep it clean and be sure that you can verify the solidity of every knot and rope drag in a glance. After 25 years of climbing, I always verify two or three time my belay as I pull the rope of some one to the top. As I have the chance to climb with older climber, who can talk about danger and repeat always the same think, I am still afraid to make a mistake as when you walk in a center market and fall on a wet floor.

Take time to do it right. Take one or two year to learn prevention. It is the best...even if we can not save every one who do that dangerous sport. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:26:08 PM by champoing »
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mechanicalchris

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David_G48

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 06:27:33 PM »

DMan
If you want to see an interesting side conversation go to http://www.rockclimbing.com/ and review under Gear Heads  webbing VS static rope. The NEGuides owner took a bold stance and was burned until well done. I think his singular opinion stated as fact and general professional acceptance was not received well. I'm not saying he was right or wrong just my opinion differs from his in both his approach and technical expertise. It reminds me of when you go after Champ except on a grand scale.
David
PS Sorry my link is not a clicky thing as I am old and computer illiterate
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Admin Al

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 07:57:02 PM »

there is NO real hard information at this time, so speculation is really worthless.
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DLottmann

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 09:36:20 PM »

DMan
If you want to see an interesting side conversation go to http://www.rockclimbing.com/ and review under Gear Heads  webbing VS static rope. The NEGuides owner took a bold stance and was burned until well done. I think his singular opinion stated as fact and general professional acceptance was not received well. I'm not saying he was right or wrong just my opinion differs from his in both his approach and technical expertise. It reminds me of when you go after Champ except on a grand scale.
David
PS Sorry my link is not a clicky thing as I am old and computer illiterate

Can you give me the 2 line synopsis? I really don't have time or desire to get involved with another climbing website. What was his stance? And who is NEGuides?
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lucky luke

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 01:24:05 PM »

there is NO real hard information at this time, so speculation is really worthless.

I agree with you. Could be time to remember all mistake that some one can do as they climb in topr rope to fall... from an inattentive belayer, to a rope without carabiner on the webbing and clipping the wrong sling because there is too much knot on the belay.

One time I was solo climbing and I made a zipper effect on my belay. i aw the first pro pop out and I was waiting that the second get out of his crack...fearless: pure resignation. The stopper hold...and I had to do the traverse on that protection knowing that I won't be lucky two times.       
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2012, 11:20:18 AM »

Dave, Fairly intersting total meltdown in public. guy claiming to be a  tester for certification of guides in some new  guide governing body PCGS? went on a rant against useing webbing in  TR setups. Sprayed a bunch of stuff about what a pro guide he was and then it came to light that he is not certified but just a marketing administrator in the orginazation... OOOps  did I just lose my job?????? Oh sorry, :-[ my bad
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PG

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2012, 07:51:55 AM »

I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out. It generally puts a different perspective on the matter. Most new climbers are more interested in buying the latest gear rather than some of the most important pieces of equipment. That can wait until later. For example a helmet, a book or two on climbing anchors or even a book on knots, or even a lesson on setting up a top rope. Most guiding companys or even climbing gyms offer a one day class for short money. Certianly far less then the cost of a funeral.
Several years ago in France a person died while climbing. It seems that his belayer was not paying attention to his climber. The belayer droped the climber resulting in death. The belayer was convicted of third degree murder. Do you think this case is similar? Does anyone think that the person who set up the top rope anchor has any responsibility in setting it up safely (RENE). Should that person be held legally responsible for that persons death. I'm not out to hang anyone but peple should know how serious this game is. People need to take responsibility for their actions even it their actions lead to the death of others. Sounds harsh but death of that young girl should never have happened. Not from a toprope anchor failure ! Yes, I'm pissed.

Pete
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frik

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2012, 08:30:11 AM »

dOOD, I've been climbing since goldline and stiff soled boots - i have no idea what RENE means.....

I plead ignorance your honor.
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carp

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2012, 08:30:47 AM »

I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out. It generally puts a different perspective on the matter. Most new climbers are more interested in buying the latest gear rather than some of the most important pieces of equipment. That can wait until later. For example a helmet, a book or two on climbing anchors or even a book on knots, or even a lesson on setting up a top rope. Most guiding companys or even climbing gyms offer a one day class for short money. Certianly far less then the cost of a funeral.
Several years ago in France a person died while climbing. It seems that his belayer was not paying attention to his climber. The belayer droped the climber resulting in death. The belayer was convicted of third degree murder. Do you think this case is similar? Does anyone think that the person who set up the top rope anchor has any responsibility in setting it up safely (RENE). Should that person be held legally responsible for that persons death. I'm not out to hang anyone but peple should know how serious this game is. People need to take responsibility for their actions even it their actions lead to the death of others. Sounds harsh but death of that young girl should never have happened. Not from a toprope anchor failure ! Yes, I'm pissed.

Pete

Exactly!!  What the climbing community needs to maintain it's high standards of safety is more climbers like you who were never new and ignorant, never made mistakes, never went out for the first time trusting someone else to keep you safe, and always knew exactly what to do in every situation. Thank aged for you. If only there were more people like you it would be a better world. Jackass.

And what is this RENE stuff anyways. I've been an outdoor educator for  18 years and I've never heard this one. Maybe that means I don't know what I'm doing so I shouldn't go climbing again until I take a class from someone?!??!!!
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lucky luke

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2012, 08:51:53 AM »

I think we are all overlooking the simple reason for this accident to happen. The anchor did not follow RENE. Simple enough but some prople do not now what this means. Most people do not have some of the most basic anchor building skills. When I go out with new climbers and they want to set up the anchor, I tell them to rap down and test it out.

For me, rapp is very dangerous and someone who told to a new climber to rap most be sue in law...more than someone who make a mistake and where the result is an injury. In a criminal aspect, one most have the intention to do some thing wrong and I can bet that any of the climber, even those who gave me regularly negative karma, want that an accident happen. Even on the helmet topic, those who dont want to use an helmet gave a safety reason, a false sensation of safety as it is better not to fall in your head without helmet than to fall in your head with an helmet, to not use an helmet (which is true). Those who teach climbing are more concern by criminal sue. There decision to gave information to have more client than to gave borring information or to gave information that prevent accident in a gym, but are dangerous in the wild, make a consciousness act that can endanger some people.     

Ounce, I suggest to have an obligatory course for trad climbing to inform people on the basic theory, to make sure that the climber understand the basic of gravity ( if you have a force down (body weight) you most have an equivalent force to pull you up (rope an anchor). This concept is very different than do it like that and like this and you will be safe. For me, climbing is like holding a gun. Today, in Quebec, some one who want to use a gun mos follow a safety course. In my driving course, long time ago, I had a session where they show me what happen if I was careless. It help me to stay concentrate on the road even today (belt, distance, speed, etc).

After setting an anchor, a second climber can verify the set up with a beginer or occasional climber. The new climber are generaly very carefull at not making mistake. The danger is more when someone know enought to kill themselve and not enought to understand what is going on. Following a leader for one year is not exagerate in those circonstances. Most important: stop to think that easy is 5.9. Those who said that are very close to criminal for me. If your chance of falling is one over 100, there is less chances to be injure than if your chances of falling is fifty percent.   
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:56:08 AM by champoing »
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slevasse

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Re: New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2012, 09:12:18 AM »

dOOD, I've been climbing since goldline and stiff soled boots - i have no idea what RENE means.....

I plead ignorance your honor.

Looked it up but I only found it as SRENE = Solid Redundant Equalized Non-Extending.  Never saw any mention of RENE without the S. 
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