New Jersey woman dies in climbing accident at the Gunks

[frik]

Jeesh always thought "Solid" meant all that other stuff.... except "non extending" i have no idea what that means   

[PG]

RENA is the same without the S. I always check an anchor before anyone uses the rope. I say that only to make that person realize how important it is to be sure the anchor is safe and up to AMGA standards. So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? What would happen if it were a car accident and someone was killed. Should the driver be able to walk away and say sorry, I didn't know ?

Pete

[JBro]

So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? 

No, I think they're saying they don't need an acronym from a fancy guide association to remind themselves that their anchor should be safe.


Look both ways
OK...?
Ahhh ha
Den lets get going.

Look I made up an acronym for crossing the street...

[frik]

Well i think it is actually  ok to kill someone by mistake.... as long as you use a gun and say "i felt threatened"!

We need an acronym for that:  FIFKTFBFM -IFFT!

[Old Mans Ghost]

Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.

[lucky luke]

So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ?
Pete

Maybe it is my english as the definition of mistake is: An action or judgment that is misguided or wrong: "coming here was a mistake".

If the action is done deliberately, I agree that you must be accountable for it.

If you make a mistake without any intention to make a misguided or wrong judgment, you will have enought selfconsciousness of the gravity of what you have done that putting more stress to that person will just destroy an other life.

[hobbsj]

Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.

You hippies make me miss Texas! :-)

[apbt1976]

Pretty sure you can kill someone totally on purpose for that, if you do it in the right State.

You hippies make me miss Texas! :-)

kale and bean eating hippies lol

Whats up dude how are the feet. When do you leave for your two months of vaca?

[carp]

So some of you folks are saying it's OK to make a mistake that will kill someone and not be accountable for it ? What would happen if it were a car accident and someone was killed. Should the driver be able to walk away and say sorry, I didn't know ?

I'm just saying that I don't know about yours, but my climbing career is nowhere near perfect enough to allow me to be judgemental of other people's mistakes. I think that most people who climb enough will end up getting lucky at some point. And I'm sure that these folks are way more upset about the death of their friend than I could be. I don't think that a bunch of spray from the peanut gallery is really gonna help them any.

[Jeff]

@Carp +2  Oops, machine says I can only give +1 without waiting an hour--the thought counts, right?

[DLottmann]

“S” was dropped from RENE as it was a bit of a given that an anchor should be “solid or secure”.

While it isn’t necessary to strictly abide by acronyms it is proven it helps people memorize key points of concepts in all walks of life, climbing included. It is helpful for beginners learning the complex concepts of building safe gear anchors but by no means the only way it should be done. There’s also exceptions to almost every “rule” in the RENE acronym.

- Redundant- Well if it’s a huge pine tree one is OK right?
- Equalized- I’m not too worried about “true” equalization if each point is very strong
- No Extension- Again, not a big deal if each piece is really strong but I emphasize “limited extension”. If one piece falls you should not have 5 feet of slack in the system...

I don’t think anything has been announced that’s conclusive about this accident but I will say I hate seeing multiple shoulder length slings girth hitched together... that is inviting to many potential weak links in the system...

[JBro]

I think acronyms are fine for teaching beginners, but after the initial learning period does anybody actually stop while building each anchor and walk themselves through RENE? I doubt more than a tiny percent of the most anal individuals among us do that.

Assuming whoever built that anchor wouldn't have made that mistake if he had been taught RENE, for one thing, assumes that he hadn't been taught RENE. We have no idea if that's the case in this situation. It could easily be that the anchor builder was experienced, and just somehow did something incomprehensible. Or he could be inexperience and screwed up despite having been taught RENE. Or something else equally baffling happened.

For my part anyway, I just get offended by the idea that oversight and/or rigid guidelines and methods of teaching need to be applied to all just because of one extraordinarily uncommon occurrence. Especially considering we don't even know what happened in this case.



edit for grammar

[DLottmann]

I think acronyms are fine for teaching beginners, but after the initial learning period does anybody actually stop while building each anchor and walk themselves through RENE? ...

For my part anyway, I just get offended by the idea that oversight and/or rigid guidelines and methods of teaching need to be applied to all just because of one extraordinarily uncommon occurrence. Especially considering we don't even know what happened in this case.

I totally agree. It only helps the newest of climbers and as soon as the concepts are understood off paper acronyms should go right out the window. Each person is different so some may hold onto the slow walk through of RENE while others grasp it quick and yell off belay before you freeze to death.

Just to be clear I am definitely not advocating anything is changed regarding guidelines or teaching methods especially because we still have no idea what happened, though I would advocate people stop girth-hitching 8 slings together to extend their anchors over an edge somewhere... It just looks stoopid

I know I’m ranting about it but you know where I see it most? Top of the North End Pillars in winter. There’s no fricking friction on smooth water ice folks, you can keep you master point up near the gigantic pine tree so your peeps can top out and lower back down nice and comfy cozy...

[sneoh]

I would advocate people stop girth-hitching 8 slings together to extend their anchors over an edge somewhere... It just looks stoopid

I have to fess up and admit that I have done something like this but only a max of 4 slings.
More recently I read about a series of tests which showed how much a knot lowers the breaking strength of a sling by.  The lower failure load is not too bad if one were to girth-hitch nylon-to-nylon or Dyneema-to-Dyneema.  But the decrease is significantly larger if one were to girth-hitch nylon-to-Dyneema.  I decided I would go with the cheaper all nylon from now on and replace them more frequently (rather than trying to eek out 5 to 8 years of use with Dyneema).

[strandman]

Acronyms ??

Tom Callaghan- " Belay Anchors Are Sacred "  BAAS

Works for me