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Author Topic: trad is it more sustain than sport?  (Read 2385 times)

lucky luke

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trad is it more sustain than sport?
« on: May 09, 2012, 06:57:10 AM »

some beginers asked me if sport need more strenght than trad. My point of view is that we use our strenght differently. In the discussion, we taught how can we estimate the strength of each climber? In many books, they use the relative strenght (the weight you can pull in one pull up divide by your body weight). The notion is very interesting as some study make a relation between your relative strenght (0.8 for women in the army in 1980 and 1.25 for the man) and the grade you can climb ( 4 pull up without extra weight and you can climb most 5.9). As the method is not precise and climbing a slab don't need as much strenght than an overhang, it is hard to use it.

In my opinion, we must compare the same person doing trad and doing sport. As actually most of the climber climb easily 5.10 or 5.11 in sport, and hardly 5.9 and 5.10 in trad, most people will conclud that it is easier in sport.

I don't think so. I think that we must compare the energy use in climbing. For example, imagine that you have 100 unity of energy and that you make three moves.

In trad, you will begin to climb, do the first move to a rest, place a pro, do the second move to an other rest, place a pro and finish with the last move. If you have 100 unity of energy, you will use 30 unit for the first move, 10 unit to place the pro, 30 unit for the second move, and 10 unit to place your last protection and you will fall in the last move because you just have 20 unit left and you need 30.

In sport, You will do the first move, clip the bolt, do the second move, clip the bolt and finish the third move. You are going to spend your energy like that: 30 + 5 + 30 + 5 + 30 = 100 unity.

So, in that example, sport climber do a better use of his energy because he just have to clip a bolt. Other strategy to keep your energy will be to learn the movement before, one at a time, and to try the sequences after. If you climb fast, you will loose less energy to keep your body in balance on the wall. To do that, some people will down climb a route and practice the movement. I saw some people coming to evaluate the route one year before he try to do it.

Trad have also there strategy. As the climber don't have enought energy (30 + 10 + 30 + 10 + 30 = 110), he will try to take rest. There is two kind of rest: active rest, the climber use aerobic strenght to recover is energy and climb very fast to use is maximal strenght for a short period or passive rest, the climber hang on the rope.

With that information, a beginer can understand why  the climber favorise the strategy bottom up before. It is because the climber like to understand the move from under, use a strategy to keep is strenght and be prepare mentaly for a fall as he place is pro.

We can also understand that a sport climber will prefer to climb hard and was not as interested in placing gear. So, a sport climber who need 110 unity of strenght will climb a higher grade than a trad climber who need 110 unity of strenght. But the energy use will be different (aerobic, anaerobic lactique, anaerobic alactic and creatine phosphatase)       
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Jeff

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 08:23:38 AM »

WAY too many numbers for this old man to keep in my head while climbing-- I usually just pick a route that looks good to me, that is (I hope) within my possible range for success, and have at it. I back off a lot more than I fall off--learned to down climb out of trouble in the days of Goldline and Robbins boots. I'm still having fun outside :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:25:34 AM by Jeff »
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old_school

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 08:35:59 AM »

WAY too many numbers for this old man to keep in my head while climbing-- I usually just pick a route that looks good to me, that is (I hope) within my possible range for success, and have at it. I back off a lot more than I fall off--learned to down climb out of trouble in the days of Goldline and Robbins boots. I'm still having fun outside :)

+++++1  ;)
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

strandman

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 09:35:14 AM »

I like the passive rest- hang on the rope !
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DLottmann

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 09:42:31 AM »

new and original
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meclimber

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 03:29:30 PM »

Dave, the only reason I opened this thread was because who started it and who made the last comment.  Don't listen to the haters who say to lay off him, i was hoping to have a laugh.   
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Jon Howard

DLottmann

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »

Dave, the only reason I opened this thread was because who started it and who made the last comment.  Don't listen to the haters who say to lay off him, i was hoping to have a laugh.

I gotta be honest I didnít actually read his post
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sneoh

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 04:57:51 PM »

You disappoint us, Dave.  :) Put in the work and tell us what you think! :):)
I am with Jon on this one.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

meclimber

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 05:28:12 PM »

laughed right out loud on that sneoh. 

dave, me neither.  But I gathered what I could from the title!
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Jon Howard

DLottmann

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 05:34:00 PM »

something about bolts?
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DWT

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »

Dave, the only reason I opened this thread was because who started it and who made the last comment.  Don't listen to the haters who say to lay off him, i was hoping to have a laugh.

I gotta be honest I didnít actually read his post

 :D
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 07:10:04 AM »

I almost Never read anything that long on a climbing blog.....    I just gave it a negative on general principals for being too long and the same old tard Vs spurt argument he always brings up...

Champ keeps dissing sport for all the wrong reasons... the real reason it is a shame when folks get stuck in the sport rut is that it limits what you can climb. They have all that strength from sport climbing  yet so many climbs are off limits  simply because they require gear  to get up them.  learn all aspects of climbing and you will open a lot of really cool doors...  You won't have to drive by stuff like Devils tower and wish it had a line of bolts up it.
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DGoguen

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 08:05:51 AM »

  learn all aspects of climbing and you will open a lot of really cool doors... 

Right on Tradman.
And +1 for no spelling errors. HaHa

I did read the original post and it consumed 97.75 units of energy.  25+7+15+17+5+11+19+9.75=97.75 Units
I'm exhausted.
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lucky luke

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 11:32:47 AM »

WAY too many numbers for this old man to keep in my head while climbing-


Fortunately, there is no numbers to remember from that. Neverthless, I thought that it was a good way for a beginer to understand about different strategy of climbing, in relation with the energy required to do a climb. It is very rare that we heard what a beginer think of that. As we have the women death in the gunks recently... I am sorry that I can not find people with who I can discuss to have a deep understanding of the energy use to climb in different situation like sport and trad, but also between slab and overhang, static versus dynamic rope.... I know that it is easier to have a superficial knowledge of what we have to do to be safe. You ask a question and...you have the exact answer with the UIAA standard. For example, climber often said: "never climb on your knee" and every trad climber of more than ten years have a numbers of experience where the knee save there life
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dpen

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Re: trad is it more sustain than sport?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 11:41:03 AM »

Quote
I did read the original post and it consumed 97.75 units of energy.  25+7+15+17+5+11+19+9.75=97.75 Units
I'm exhausted.

Lol!
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