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[DLottmann]

WAY too many numbers for this old man to keep in my head while climbing-

...every trad climber of more than ten years have a numbers of experience where the knee save there life

LMFAO

[meclimber]

^^^couldn't have said it better^^^^

[lucky luke]

Al, can you take a look on that.

It looks like a handfull of people undermine the reputation of safety in climbing. I translate or write some part of mountaineering freedom of the hill and grimper, wrote by Patrick Edlinger and two teacher of univeristy (doctorat and more) and those handfull just want to bring people to use superficial rules and discourage people to learn to climb safe. What they wrote are just an insult to the good climbers from the books where I take the information, climber that make the history.

If you look at the section and find any beginer giving comments or other people giving positive comments on the good side of safety of montaineering freedom of the hill... it is rare. People don't want to talk because of an handfull number of people who just was angry because they loose a friend while climbing or was scare by an accident, people that you probably know.
 
Climbing is dangerous. But if that handfull of people influence the beginer to not practice safety and be scare by accident...it will not be good for trad climbing. I am sure that all of your member of more than fifty who climb for many years will agreee with me. They climb safely, with not as good equipment than today, and they still enjoy climbing.

[DLottmann]

Champ, we all believe in safety and teaching beginners good technique and yada yada yada... but ENOUGH WITH THE OVER ANALYZING ... You take the conversation to such extraordinary depths... no one is benefiting from your mathematical rants...

Tone it back man.... please for the love of all that is holy stop generalizing the differences between sport and trad climbing. Stop calculating energy spent doing one or the other.

It is all bull-shit. Some trad climbs are like super hard sport climbs... some sport climbs are super scary mentally... Climbing is GREY in general...

Please... just.... stop....

[DGoguen]

I am sure that all of your member of more than fifty who climb for many years will agreee with me.

100% is a pretty serious number.

[sneoh]

I am in that age group.  What am I supposed to agree with Champ on?
Oh, is trad more sustained than sport of the same grade?  Generally yes but not 100% so.

[Admin Al]

Please... just.... stop....

you know you don't HAVE to listen, er. read...

[lucky luke]

Please... just.... stop....

you know you don't HAVE to listen, er. read...

or write any thing.

I learn that way because I couldn't climb year long at our crag and I read paper. I know very good climber who will teach safety very well. Ordinarly, you know if your guide is good when you understand six month or a year later what he teach you. I climbed with a guide on my first year at cathedral and he found exactly my weakness and gave me clue to improve my climbing style.

I talk about the energy need because it is the first step to analyse what you need if you train for a long route like the nose or a first multi pitch at canon. If you are very strong with your back muscle and have very weak hand...training your back won't gave you any think. It is also interesting when you want to plan a route. It could be interesting to talk about what happen when a second follow the leader as he have to remove the pro. If a leader climb place a pro and go back to a rest, a second have to climb remove the pro and continue to climb or fall. He can not go back to the rest because the rope is there.   

[DLottmann]

Please... just.... stop....

you know you don't HAVE to listen, er. read...

...If a leader climb place a pro and go back to a rest, a second have to climb remove the pro and continue to climb or fall. He can not go back to the rest because the rope is there.   

Umm, a good belayer can let slack out so the climber can down climb to the rest. Please consult belaying chapter in Freedom of the Hills for details.

[Jeff]

Dave: stop banging your head against the wall!

[DLottmann]

Dave: stop banging your head against the wall!

I don't have the self-restraint

[lucky luke]

...If a leader climb place a pro and go back to a rest, a second have to climb remove the pro and continue to climb or fall. He can not go back to the rest because the rope is there.   

Umm, a good belayer can let slack out so the climber can down climb to the rest. Please consult belaying chapter in Freedom of the Hills for details.

In a traverse, the leader can place a nuts close to a rest. as he movem the belayer side to the next one,  but giving slack to the second can be very dangerous ounce the pro is remove. so, the second can make the move and remove the pro after, instead of taking the rest. It is just one case where giving slack is not working. But to a beginer...your the best!!!

I know that many old climber test it. when they were at the sharp end of the bolt, they had to decide to place a protection to protect his partner or to place one for is own protection. Some day they make mistake and the second talk that it was a close one or the second was well protect. But for those who didn't have time to get out on the cliff , the model on the energy above can be usefull to decide where it is better to conserve your energy and when it is better to keep the feet on the ground.

[eyebolter]

Two climbs, side by each, same grade of Trad and Sport.

Which is more sustain?

Climb trad first, Swiss accurate time each placement.
 
Climb sport, but stay at each bolt for same time as trad piece.

Equal sustain.

[frik]

AH  HA, busted!

EyeBolter == Champ!

mystery solved

[tradmanclimbz]

Ward, you know it does not work that way. Like it or not part of the trad grade is the dificulty of  getting gear in.  A steep sport route may even have harder moves for the same grade and simply not feel as pumpy as a trad rout the same steepness. Even if you have the gear wired it is harder to get placed and clipped than it is to clip bolts.  On sport If the  draws are already hanging it makes it so much easier for me it is at least as good as a letter grade..   you certainly do not have 2 different grades for draws hung  VS hanging draws yet both ascents count. Same thing goes for gear climbs yet with gear it is very rare to pre place the gear so that does not seem to factor in so much..   Am I just rambleing now?