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[Jeff]

"Am I just rambleing now?"  Aren't we all?

[strandman]

Remember now, a TRUE redpoint is all gear, including draws, place in on push, sport or trad.

At least according to the two guys who coined the term, Gullich and Albert

[sneoh]

What have you done, Strand?  You probably just set Eric off!  It is one of his pet peeves that the younger gen seems to equate pink-point with red-point.
They are different in my book, and I record the difference; it is a "PP" or "RP". 

It gnarls at me a little when I read so and so did a red-point of a route which I know has perma-draws in place or have been pre-equipped with project draws.

[strandman]

Ray Jardine actually was one of the first to "redpoint" after dogging a line... in "76  "All gear must be placed free and on the lead"

[The other tomcat]

Trad vs, sport of same grade, yes trad is more sustain. Pinkpoint, I don't get that? You already eliminated route finding,gear management and carrying the weight of a rack, and you still can't do it without pre-placed draws?

Ever give thought to what kind of ice you could climb if you rapped down and placed screws every six or seven feet first? We'll keep it burly, so you have to clip the draws yourself...lol...

 Smite me....

edited for f-bombs and such.

[DMan]

Ever give thought to what kind of ice you could climb if you rapped down and placed screws every six or seven feet first?

Dropline 2013! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[lucky luke]

Ward, you know it does not work that way. Like it or not part of the trad grade is the dificulty of  getting gear in.  A steep sport route may even have harder moves for the same grade and simply not feel as pumpy as a trad rout the same steepness. Even if you have the gear wired it is harder to get placed and clipped than it is to clip bolts.  On sport If the  draws are already hanging it makes it so much easier for me it is at least as good as a letter grade..   you certainly do not have 2 different grades for draws hung  VS hanging draws yet both ascents count. Same thing goes for gear climbs yet with gear it is very rare to pre place the gear so that does not seem to factor in so much..   Am I just rambleing now?

And, if you make an energy budget for the situation, as I did in the first paragraphe, a person can understand that it i easier because you spend less energy to clip the bolt.

In sport I agree that it is evident, but in the case f a traverse or overhang, in trad where you have the energy budget, you can understand that some times it is better to have rope drag to keep the energy low than to make a move and bring your partner in danger.

[DMan]

When is my 24 hours up so I can smite you again?

[strandman]

Cat- i gave you a +

[sneoh]

Good one, Tom. Nah, I do not think you are going to get smites.