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Author Topic: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?  (Read 4889 times)

apbt1976

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Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.

The 45 minutes would automatically make it more of an endurance deal.  The power moves zap your muscles storage in a matter of seconds due to the ATP-CP energy system which is replenished at a reasonable rate dependent on exercise intensity.  But even then its a stretch to say it comes from the liver.  Yes the lever holds around 1500kcal of glycogen, but it isn't necessarily responsible for replenishing the muscles on its own.  Plus with a 45 minute exercise bout, energy is coming from other systems too including non-working muscles releasing lactate for further breakdown. All in all, the faster twitch muscles are good for a few minutes before you get bogged down.  But, repetitive moves using the same muscle groups cause a movement to become more aerobic with repeated bouts. A really odd fact is that with training, your fast twitch muscles start to take on traits of slower twitch muscles.  It is fair to equate sprinters to climbers (more like milers for sport climbing).  But, the whole 45 minute deal with the liver is way off.  And at that point, you are relying a lot on "slow twitch" fibers.  You, Pat, of all people have seen me quaking up and down in the same 3 moves for a lot longer than 45 minutes.  That is some very aerobic trembling going on :-)

Good info john. If only i had a propensity for memorization and testing i might to school and seek some formal training in regard to the subject.
 
Your explanation may just be flying write over my head. However my original thought and maybe not clearly stated was kinda in line with your explanation for multiple short intensity activities that although anaerobic in natural when compiled ultimatley train ones aerobic system more than anaerobic. My thought, is it not true that one only has so much anaerobic capacity/intervals/efforts before that tank for said intensity/activity is so diminished or empty that the said activity becomes much more aerobic in nature due to the decreased intensity and continued effort to reproduce it at a much lower intensity?

Maybe that is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo and me wanting to hear myself talk but i am remembering spring workouts from my cycling days and thinking about in the course of a day climbing how long i can continue to work a climb that is clearly a above my head ability wise before it is just a waste of time. My answer would be with a rest of 2-5 minutes between attempts a solid 30-45 minutes.

Does that last thought make sense to you  in regard to Champs 45 minute claim because it does to me and i wonder if this is what he is speaking to?

And i have not seen your work a sequence of three moves for 45 minutes and far to long my friend. I hope you are sitting on the couch with the feet one hand in a bag if chips and the other holding a beer!!
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hobbsj

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Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are).  And the muscle speed is a characteristics of the myosin head isoforms and enzymatic activity and characterized with the color due to mitichondria density and NOT blood flow.  You drain a chicken breast and a chicken thigh of all the blood and one is still going to be lighter than the other because one is fast twitch and one is slow stitch.  Also explains why the white meat has more fat--slow twitch muscles store more fat as they are recruited at intensities that allow for more use of it as a fuel.  And blood levels are fairly constant.  You get more plasma volume in the first couple weeks of exercise training with a subsequent increase in red blood cells at about week 6, but it remains constant after that while you can still train muscle fibers long after that.  You're absolutely right that the muscle is a small fuel tank, but with a 45 minute exercise bout repeated over and over, you're not going to exhaust those fuel reserves and then refill them. Once depleted, it takes hours to restore muscle glycogen.

Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear.  Although all my internet posting lately would make people think I'm an unemployed bum :-)

And to Pat, you are absolutely correct that repeated bouts of exercise "become aerobic" due to fatigue and decreased intensity.  But that's not the same as climbing straight for 45 minute as was the original post regarding a 45 minute pitch on whitehorse.  There's a lot more tied in to the equation and really can't be simplified as its dependent on the changes in intensity of the activity.    The work/rest/repeat is more like an interval training series.  In that case, you are still anaerobic in the hard part. You are just making it so you can log more total time at a given intensity, like 5X8 min intervals at the same power you could only hold for a 25 min TT on the bike.  The level of activation of the muscles and work load determine if its aerobic and anaerobic.  You could do the 3-5 minute efforts like you said, or you could do something harder for a shorter duration and easier for a longer duration.  The time spent working a climb is more likely related to chance of success or progress.  You aren't going to try a move over and over for 45  minutes if you can't even hold on in the first place.  Equating it to the bike again, 300 watts is 300 watts.  It is an anaerobic intensity (at least for me) regardless of the number of repeats.  If I can't hold 300 watts, my ass gets dropped.  Now lets look at a CX course that more applies to your example of anaerobic becoming aerobic.  The intitial effort may be huge over a run-up, but that pace gets slower with fatigue making it aerobic.  Climbing is similar.  You pull some moves really fast and hard.  Then you go down and do it again.  If the moves are easy enough to perform, you can do them more slowly in an "aerobic" state, but you have to have a given amount of strength to do it that just may not be there at that low of an intensity.  And as far as hard intensity to train the aerobic system, that's a whole different list of adaptations and explinations.  But in the end, with hard repeats, you are training your anaerobic system by making it do more work than a straight effort like the TT example earlier.  And yes, you do see adaptions that are very aerobic after hard training due to the various adaptations  For example, a VO2 block of training does a LOT for anaerobic work capacity as that's the type of intensity it is.  But, you also get adaptation that are very beneficiall aerobically as a bonus.  This explanation is scattered, I know as I went back and added stuff here and there.  And wow, this is a far cry from rope management on Whitehorse!
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apbt1976

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Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are).  And the muscle speed is a characteristics of the myosin head isoforms and enzymatic activity and characterized with the color due to mitichondria density and NOT blood flow.  You drain a chicken breast and a chicken thigh of all the blood and one is still going to be lighter than the other because one is fast twitch and one is slow stitch.  Also explains why the white meat has more fat--slow twitch muscles store more fat as they are recruited at intensities that allow for more use of it as a fuel.  And blood levels are fairly constant.  You get more plasma volume in the first couple weeks of exercise training with a subsequent increase in red blood cells at about week 6, but it remains constant after that while you can still train muscle fibers long after that.  You're absolutely right that the muscle is a small fuel tank, but with a 45 minute exercise bout repeated over and over, you're not going to exhaust those fuel reserves and then refill them. Once depleted, it takes hours to restore muscle glycogen.

Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear.  Although all my internet posting lately would make people think I'm an unemployed bum :-)

And to Pat, you are absolutely correct that repeated bouts of exercise "become aerobic" due to fatigue and decreased intensity.  But that's not the same as climbing straight for 45 minute as was the original post regarding a 45 minute pitch on whitehorse.  There's a lot more tied in to the equation and really can't be simplified as its dependent on the changes in intensity of the activity.    The work/rest/repeat is more like an interval training series.  In that case, you are still anaerobic in the hard part. You are just making it so you can log more total time at a given intensity, like 5X8 min intervals at the same power you could only hold for a 25 min TT on the bike.  The level of activation of the muscles and work load determine if its aerobic and anaerobic.  You could do the 3-5 minute efforts like you said, or you could do something harder for a shorter duration and easier for a longer duration.  The time spent working a climb is more likely related to chance of success or progress.  You aren't going to try a move over and over for 45  minutes if you can't even hold on in the first place.  Equating it to the bike again, 300 watts is 300 watts.  It is an anaerobic intensity (at least for me) regardless of the number of repeats.  If I can't hold 300 watts, my ass gets dropped.  Now lets look at a CX course that more applies to your example of anaerobic becoming aerobic.  The intitial effort may be huge over a run-up, but that pace gets slower with fatigue making it aerobic.  Climbing is similar.  You pull some moves really fast and hard.  Then you go down and do it again.  If the moves are easy enough to perform, you can do them more slowly in an "aerobic" state, but you have to have a given amount of strength to do it that just may not be there at that low of an intensity.  And as far as hard intensity to train the aerobic system, that's a whole different list of adaptations and explinations.  But in the end, with hard repeats, you are training your anaerobic system by making it do more work than a straight effort like the TT example earlier.  And yes, you do see adaptions that are very aerobic after hard training due to the various adaptations  For example, a VO2 block of training does a LOT for anaerobic work capacity as that's the type of intensity it is.  But, you also get adaptation that are very beneficiall aerobically as a bonus.  This explanation is scattered, I know as I went back and added stuff here and there.  And wow, this is a far cry from rope management on Whitehorse!

In regard to your last statement in your last sentence i say it sure as hell is sensi ;)

Being i have a fair amount of prior knowledge/understanding i can clearly follow all of the above. As for rope management that is another story. I still don't know what is so hard about that all for me. Just like anything i am sure it is just practice and i will look back and shake my head. Actually am sure i will as in theory it is all so simple.

As i said prior i understand in principle all the exercise physiology but man what i give give to really understand it academically to the depth that you do. Again me and school just do not get along. As you have said probably not the most practical use of ones time anyway.

Thanks for the explanation. And ow P.S. you end up on the interweb quite a bit more when you are injured ;)

Ow yeah and i was thinking as i just was out watering the garden was that comment you made in regard to people thinking you are some kind of unemployed bum a dig at me. Actually don't answer that ;)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 04:16:29 PM by apbt1976 »
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strandman

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I think I'm gonna fucking die the next time I do WH standard   :-\

Holly shit , this is way to much info.

Maybe we should just climb ?

i have scientific/medical advice-

don't fall off and hit something
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slink

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+1 John.
 I think it is the rain out here causing people to think wayyy too much about this.
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bailing is not failing!!!

lucky luke

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Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable.  And its theorized that its the hydrogen ions, not pyruvate, that causes the burning due to a change in pH.  The pump is largely due to occlusion of the blood vessels due to contraction of the muscle with local mediators being released in an effort to increase blood flow (think blood pressure cuff left on too long) in conjunction with fatigue mechanisms (which as much as people throw terms around, the exercise science world only has some theories as to what the sole mechanisms of fatigue are). 

throwing a couple of more technical words.... I just said that it is complex and when your reserve is empty, you should put some thing back in it. I think that every teacher know that after 45 minutes the student begin to be less concentrate. It is just that to survive, most animal need a boust of energy to escape or hunt. if they spend more energy than the expense, they died and if they don't have enought they don't eat or escape. It is basicaly the rule of natural selection. Atp -cr is a ready to use form of energy and it is use for a very short period (boulder climber use that). After that, your reserve of energy is lower and you can't have it until you rest passively or actively.

There is a difference on the way we explain the mechanism between training purposes and biological cells. I wonder if you read about the effect of pH on the muscle and the reaction? if the number of red and white muscular fiber is stable in the body and can explain why certain person are stronger than the other in a sport? how you can train Pink fiber to white or to red depending of what the animal need to survive?

The idea here is not to afraid people, but just to gave some info that can be usefull while climbing. I thought that I can do a master degree on cells nutrition, but not when I am climbing. Still i can evaluate that 45 minutes is normal for a pitch.   

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:25:09 AM by champoing »
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old_school

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Hobbsj!!! That post is amazing!
Where the hell did you learn all of this, clearly a medical background in your past or present?
~g
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

sneoh

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i have scientific/medical advice-
don't fall off and hit something
With no disrepect to others, this is concise and to the point.  KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
There is just so much my brain can hold at any one time and that amount decreases exponentially as my arms and/or calf muscles get pumped! :)
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

old_school

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  • "Climb Now, Work Later."

i have scientific/medical advice-
don't fall off and hit something
With no disrepect to others, this is concise and to the point.  KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
There is just so much my brain can hold at any one time and that amount decreases exponentially as my arms and/or calf muscles get pumped! :)

+1
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

lucky luke

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I think I'm gonna fucking die the next time I do WH standard   :-\

Holly shit , this is way to much info.

Maybe we should just climb ?

I agree. It is the reason why I sugest: look at the cliff from the parking. Localize the route and decide where you are going to place the belay. Evaluate a time of 1h30 for a pitch. If there is 7 pitch it will take ten hours. so dont bein at ten o'clock (it can be faster for an intermediate climber, whe are in a beginer section). Evaluate the fall factor on a 0 degree slab with friction. Personally, I always use a 10.2. The use of an 8.5 could be scary for the third climber, so I will use two half rope for the third climber clip in each protection, discuss with your partner how you want to coil the rope at the belay and try to find what doesn't work.

Most of it, if you have the choice between understanding someone who climb instead of going to class and someone who go to class instead of climbing, try to understand what the good climber in the cliff is doing. It is more important than what they say in books.
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xcrag_corex

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+1 Strand!!!!! THE RAINS GONE!!!! LETS GET OUR EFF'N CLIMB ON!!!!! :)
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-Jeremy Ballou

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DLottmann

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... try to understand what the good climber in the cliff is doing. It is more important than what they say in books.

And Champ gets the first +1 from me, even though he had to much generalization in the rest of the post, this quote is excellent
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:48:55 PM by DMan »
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DGoguen

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And Champ gets the first +1 from me,
I know it's going to be unusually cold tonight but apparently Hell has frozen over. Ha Ha
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lucky luke

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Champ, you should refrain from scientific and medical advice.  Throwing a couple of more technical words in there doesn't make you more reliable. [...] Ill-informed individuals spreading haphazard antictidotal explanations is what makes one of my jobs a pain in the rear. 

Here a reference of what I talk about:

Body fat and carbohydrate stores provide the major sources of exercise fuel; whereas fat sources (plasma free fatty acids derived from adipose tissue and intramuscular triglycerides) are relatively plentiful, carbohydrate sources (plasma glucose derived from the liver or dietary carbohydrate intake, and muscle glycogen stores) are limited (for a review, see Coyle, 1995). In fact, the availability of carbohydrate as a substrate for the muscle and central nervous system becomes a limiting factor in the performance of prolonged sessions (90 min) of submaximal or intermittent high-intensity exercise, and plays a permissive role in the performance of brief high-intensity work. http://sportsoracle.com/uploads/2595.pdf  Carbohydrates and fat for training and recovery.

I have more with data on 45 minutes for the kind of energy we use in trad. I didn't verify for boulder or sport. I can bet that boulder don't use the same pattern.

plasma glucose derived from the liver... 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:03:15 AM by champoing »
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hobbsj

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Champ, you're looking at very small pieces and interpretation of old data.  Yes, carbohydrates are limited.  But, again, the 45 min window is arbitrary dependent on intensity.  I'm not arguing with 45 min per pitch being a rule of thumb in planning pitches and think its a fair number.  But substrate utilization is dependent on intensity.  Duration plays in to it and cause also cause a shift in usage too.  And again, new data suggests that it is not just substrate availability that leads to fatigue.  They've hooked people up to glucose infusions and they still crack.  And yes, plasma glucose has a major contributor from the liver, but its not as simple as you state where you use all your muscle glycogen and then move on to the liver.  Instead, your liver is pushing out glucose all the time dependent on intensity just as your adipose tissue pushes out triglycerides for energy use.  Plus, oral intake contributes significantly.  That bar you eat at the belay adds quite a kick if you get enough carbohydrates in it.  And besides, the big thing we have BOTH failed to hit is that intramuscular substrate doesn't mean squat if fuel is the limiter--its blood glucose levels crashing that leads to a bonk.  The only thing your body cares about regarding fuel is keeping your brain fed first.  Your muscles are just sucking down energy.  I used to have some awesome graphs explaining substrate, time and intensity that I used when I taught exercise physiology.  If I can find them, I'll post them as they make it easier to grasp all the variables rather than a bunch of typing.

As far as your other post, again, you have stuff that is correct, and things not so much.  Yes can can train muscle fibers to act like other fibers.  But, they only act that way.  Muscle fiber composition is genetically predetermined.  But training can make muscles act "slower" with adaptations.  You get alterations in enzymes, increased capillary density, increased mitochandria, and changes in substrate store intramuscularly.  That slow  twitch fiber, though, will always be slow twitch as determined by the inervation.  If you did the ol' swaparoo with the nerves, then you'd see a change in characteristics.  And pH as you mentioned changes a lot of things.  As does heat, hormones, and items we're still trying to explain.

Oh yeah, I studied in Coyle's lab for a bit and had him as an instructor for several classes.  Regardless of what people think of the man, he was willing to always point out that we have the tendency to take a data set and incorrectly apply it universally.

Thanks for the props old school.  I do have a bit of history in the field.  I train endurance athletes as well as taught this stuff before moving north and becoming a murse.  Its dorky, but I enjoy teaching and guess that leads to online ramblings when I'm couch-bound.
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