Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?

[DLottmann]

That’s decent timing, especially considering your extended siesta on Lunch Ledge.

As for the rope drag on that pitch it isn’t bad at all if you do it like this;

1) First piece right before you head left up to the 1st pin, shoulder length sling

2) Clip the pin with a shoulder sling

3) Bolt gets a regular quickdraw, make the move right and up to the next ramp. Next piece is a great nut just below the pin corner.

4) Shoulder sling on PIN... THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL for managing the drag. After pulling the move and getting on the final ramp make sure you shake the rope to climbers left of the corner to keep it from falling into that crack. If you used a quick draw the rope will be bent sharply over the edge adding tons of drag. I see a lot of people fail right here...

5) Cam behind a flake, move up left facing corner to final move. If you place a cam on the final move before gaining the pine tree rap station you can reach down and clean it once you’ve attached to the tree. Makes belaying 2nd a bit easier... I like to be just below the pine tree on the slab for easy communication and belay management while they are working through the 2 cruxes.

The above set up is 6 pieces of gear, all but one with shoulder length sling. From Lunch Ledge the rope runs straight, almost no drag.

[DLottmann]

... I was walking up the ramp, I swung the corner, took the ledge and went back to the second tree to belay as we'd seen done. Incredible rope drag...

Did you go right after pulling the pin/corner move? If so thats part of the problem... go up and LEFT to get to the very visible pine...

[mechanicalchris]

Thanks Dman. Shaking the rope to climbers left is something I will definitely try, it's a good point.

I followed what you said except I think I went to a pine tree that's a bit further back. I saw one on the corner but the roots seemed a bit exposed so I wasn't sure if it was a safe anchor. Are you talking about belaying from the tree who's roots you can grab to take the final ledge? Perhaps using a cordallette for an anchor, hopping back to the ramp, and belaying from their?   

[DLottmann]

You do grab the roots, and if it’s the tree with multiple rap slings on it I’d say it’s quite solid. Of course you should inspect it at the time as things change. There is usually 2-3 good looking slings/cord tied to that tree. I inspect the knots and condition of the slings, and if they are good I just toss a locker on it, clove in, and yell off belay. Nothing wrong with using existing slings if there are a few of them and they look good. If in doubt whip out the cordelette. I do not step back down to the other slab, but stay in a semi-hanging belay stance just below the tree... it’s pretty comfortable and when you lean back you can make eye contact with your belayer on Lunch Ledge... also facilitates belaying off the anchor rather than sitting up on the ledge above the tree...

While were spewing all the detailed beta I’ve found the easiest way to do the next pitch is to go straight up to the next pine, sling the fatty root that is exposed, then traverse slightly up and way left over to the Sliding Board Dike. Gain the fun little dike and climb up about 30-40 feet to a pin (easy to pass look for it), then no gear but chill climbing up and left to the next pine tree, at the far left of the overlap. There is a slightly scooped line slightly to climbers right that is easiest.

[mechanicalchris]

Sounds fun, I love those kind of exposed belays. Beautiful view and it it stretches the calves. I use a PAS but I'm going to start doing a clove hitch to back it up. I trust the PAS but when I lean back I always feel like a little redundancy would help.

[DLottmann]

Sounds fun, I love those kind of exposed belays. Beautiful view and it it stretches the calves. I use a PAS but I'm going to start doing a clove hitch to back it up. I trust the PAS but when I lean back I always feel like a little redundancy would help.

Get rid of the PAS and just use a clove hitch... a properly tied clove hitch needs no backup and is less clutter, and more adjustable than the PAS

Less is more in many situations in climbing... do not be redundant for the sake of redundancy...

[Jeff]

"do not be redundant for the sake of redundancy" 

I agree with Dave here in spades! One of my mentors in guiding often says when setting up a belay anchor:  "More is not always safer, often it's just More" -- once it's bombproof, stop worrying--  I agree that a PAS is not bombproof, so I ONLY use one (actually a NYLON daisy chain) on aid; when free climbing for fun and/or guiding my dynamic ROPE is clove-hitched to the master point and I'm Off Belay

[DLottmann]

... I agree that a PAS is not bombproof, so I ONLY use one (actually a NYLON daisy chain) on aid; when free climbing for fun and/or guiding my dynamic ROPE is clove-hitched to the master point and I'm Off Belay

Just to clarify I never said the PAS isn't bombproof. The gear itself is bombproof as each loop is full strength (vrs. a daisy chain, which as Jeff mentioned should ONLY be used for body-weight aid climbing and not your main anchor attachment.)

My reasoning behind getting rid of it is a simple clove hitch is faster, more adjustable, and just as secure/strong. The only place I see a PAS making sense is sport climbing, when you want to quickly attach to a double bolt anchor, untie, and thread to lower. But a regular quickdraw works just fine for this if you know how to properly thread a sport lower without completely untying...

[DLottmann]

I also just made an edit to the directions in a post above, I had said after pulling the move at the last pin to go right. I meant go LEFT! Going right to that corner with the little pine in it gives you about a 90 degree bend in the rope. Go up and left to get to the pine that is easily identifiable from the base of the route.

[mechanicalchris]

Interesting, non of the seasoned climbers seem to opt for the PAS although we go out on a limb for em (literally) Not sure if I could convince my climbing partner to ditch her PAS for the clove (can't get her to go for the traditional prusik over the heavy Shunt) but maybe if we start doing both we'll phase out the PAS.

I'm feeling the pain of the heavy load these days and even had a rude awakening when a dangling cam on my gear sling got stuck when I tried to take the ledge on Relic Hunter at Echo Roof 2 weeks ago. The sling is getting heavy/cumbersome; full C4 set (extra #1), tri cam set, stopper set, petzl shunt, tons of BD rock lockers, reverso 3, PAS, 6 alpine draws, a cordallette, two nylon runners and two half ropes (phew) a lot for this leader.

On the one hand I find myself being able to protect my routes better because I'm not having as many of those "I wish I had brought ...!!!!". On the other hand, my sore shoulder and neck were jealous when I saw a guy go whizzing by on a single half-rope with minimal pro.

To be fair I am the same guy that spent the night on Lost In The Sun for only bringing one rope; since July I've treaded on the 'just-in-case'  side of racking. I suppose the pendulum has swung too far the other way and over-time we'll figure out what we can do without as we gain experience.

[lucky luke]

Summer belay should not take more than 2 or 3 min to set up.

if your are in fugue at canon, I had three different belay, each belay take the place of one nuts because they were weak and even with those...testing it was the last thing I want to do. In general, it most be fast, if you are climbing without previous knowledge in a cliff where five party did the route between 1975 and today, you won't even know where is the belay station and there will be no bolt or sling to say: hey it is here. Still good time as you freaking out and your partner find that you took too much time and was scarry as shit when he saw on what his life rely.

For the 45 minutes in the muscle, it I mostly for anaerobic lactique energy. of course a runner will be able to keep going for hours, but in halterophylie, the time where the energy is burned is very short (20 second) in a kind of reserve of energy that we use, it last for 45 minutes. It is also the time where the concentration begin to diminish. some times, it is faster to respect the rules of the 45 minutes to climb faster. Or preserve your energy. for my part, I prefer to rely on those rules to be able to climb onsight and have all the aspect of rock climbing, than to have some one telling me where to place my pro, to pee, to smile, etc.   

[frik]

effing brilliant Champ.... a true master.
 

[tradmanclimbz]

Ya, ya................

[DLottmann]

Interesting, non of the seasoned climbers seem to opt for the PAS although we go out on a limb for em (literally) Not sure if I could convince my climbing partner to ditch her PAS for the clove (can't get her to go for the traditional prusik over the heavy Shunt)...

Other than rigging to lower in sport climbing, name one advantage the PAS has over the clove? There really isn’t a legitimate one, so her holding on to it without being able to explain why is silly. Same for carrying around a Shunt for recreational rock climbing. I would assume she doesn’t understand how to properly use/create a prussik and lacks experience with it, so is finding a false sense of security by using the more expensive (and heavy) Shunt.

Shiny gear does not a safe climber make...

TBH, and disclaimer, I carried a Shunt around my 1st 2 seasons... that was quite awhile ago... it’s still in my closet!

[Admin Al]

the Shunt lives in my pack. I've used it a number of times in a wide variety of situations. sure a prussik works fine, but the Shunt is a different level of tool. YMMV