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Author Topic: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?  (Read 4456 times)

sneoh

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PAS is a good way to spend more money.  I can't think of a situation that I will need one given that I have the rope, quickdraw(s), and sling(s) with me when I get to an anchor.  Sure, if one is a sling short, a PAS (or the rope) can take its place.  But a PAS costs much more than a sling so why not get a sling and save some $$?
Sure, I know people who uses a PAS .... but I do not hold anything against them :)
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

mechanicalchris

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Sitting in the office practicing my clove. If you were on half ropes would you clove both? How about twins?

Excited to try the clove at the belay station partially because the PAS only extends a foot or two below the anchor and it seems that when taking up a second with auto-blocking, the further down the belayer, the easier it is to keep it tight (Second feels safer with constant tension... phew arm burn)

Just out of curiosity, we've seen a party of 3 do a half-pitch or less and the second guy goes onto the middle with a figure-8-on-a-bite with two-opposing biners... why not a clove?  So you'd trust a properly tied clove to hold them in a hanging position as the only point of contact while they belay? Do you attach the cloved biner to a rap ring? or would you ideally attach it to the same equalized anchor I'll be attaching the reverso to, since it uses both rap rings equalized? 
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hobbsj

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The energy in the muscle is burn in 45 minutes. after you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle (it is a vulgarisation).

Wow, we never covered this concept in my coursework.  Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
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sneoh

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Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DGoguen

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you have to take a rest for the liver to bring more energy to the muscle

I'm believe my liver is already over extended.
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strandman

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Sitting in the office practicing my clove. If you were on half ropes would you clove both? How about twins?

Excited to try the clove at the belay station partially because the PAS only extends a foot or two below the anchor and it seems that when taking up a second with auto-blocking, the further down the belayer, the easier it is to keep it tight (Second feels safer with constant tension... phew arm burn)

Just out of curiosity, we've seen a party of 3 do a half-pitch or less and the second guy goes onto the middle with a figure-8-on-a-bite with two-opposing biners... why not a clove?  So you'd trust a properly tied clove to hold them in a hanging position as the only point of contact while they belay? Do you attach the cloved biner to a rap ring? or would you ideally attach it to the same equalized anchor I'll be attaching the reverso to, since it uses both rap rings equalized?

I would not use a clove tie in the middle for a second, it can flop around and slip. Use a fig 8 instead.
Really try to anchor into the bolts/pins rather than the rings, stronger for sure. Are you belaying directly off the anchor ??? I prefer belaying THROUGH the anchor with the belay device on my harness.
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apbt1976

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Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.
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strandman

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I'm kinda twitchy right now... maybe i need some acid    :-\
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apbt1976

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 8)
I'm kinda twitchy right now... maybe i need some acid    :-\

Normally it is not the acid that relieves my twitches ;)
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old_school

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Along the PAS discussion, I just try to bring tools with me that serve multiple functions and so will girth hitch a double length runner through my harness. A simple overhand knot roughly midway up allows me to clip both the end and middle to my gear loop to keep it out of the way while climbing, and then it offers me a quick and solid method of anchoring in directly. The knot in the middle allows me to extend my belay device for rapelling, and it allows me to test the device prior to leaning back and dropping into oblivion due to an oversight. Once I feel the weight be taken by the rappel device, I simply unlock the biner at the anchor, and then lock it back into my belay loop for redundancy and to simply keep the tail out of the way. I can tie directly into the anchor or master point with either the figure 8 on a bight, or a clove (I use the clove 98% of the time) and then I have the double length sling for the next pitch...or to use for the anchor. the problem with the PAS is that is is dedicated to one job only really...so it is just another thing to drag up with you...thus the sore shoulders!

Just my 2 cents!

Good job getting after it bro!

~grammy
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 10:48:09 AM by old_school »
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

apbt1976

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Along the PAS discussion, I just try to bring tools with me that serve multiple functions and so will girth hitch a double length runner through my harness. A simple overhand knot roughly midway up allows me to clip both the end and middle to my gear loop to keep it out of the way while climbing, and then it offers me a quick and solid method of anchoring in directly. The knot in the middle allows me to extend my belay device for rapelling, and it allows me to test the device prior to leaning back and dropping into oblivion due to an oversight. Once I feel the weight be taken by the rappel device, I simply unlock the biner at the anchor, and then lock it back into my belay loop for redundancy and to simply keep the tail out of the way. I can tie directly into the anchor or master point with either the figure 8 on a bight, or a clove (I use the clove 98% of the time) and then I have the double length sling for the next pitch...or to use for the anchor. the problem with the PAS is that is is dedicated to one job only really...so it is just another thing to drag up with you...thus the sore shoulders!

Just my 2 cents!

Good job getting after it bro!

~grammy

I do the same exact thing. Works like a charm and as you said is a multi function/purpose piece of gear.
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frik

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Chris:
A clove hitch that isn't under tension (it doesn't need alot) can loosen up - then slip.  An 8 doesn't have that problem.
I'd say 90 % (ok Champ, 93.763%) of climbers use the clove hitch to tie into the anchor....

It's really ok, you won't die.
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old_school

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Chris:
A clove hitch that isn't under tension (it doesn't need alot) can loosen up - then slip.  An 8 doesn't have that problem.

I have heard this but in 20+ years of climbing have never experienced that. An 8 will not loosen or back out correct....but try to readjust or lengthen that knot and it is a pain in the neck. I like how quickly you can adjust the clove to suit your needs. Just what I do...  ;)
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hobbsj

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Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

I am not sure exactly what he is saying as it is often hard to make sense of his posts. Add to that i also only know so much what i am talking about in regard to the subject about how the whole fast twitch vrs. slow twitch thing works. I do know powerful moves and bursts of intense power will empty the tank much more quickly than longer sustained efforts.

If we are using runners and cyclists as example look at sprinters vrs climbers or triathletes and ultra runners vrs. track and field runners.

Not supporting Champ just offering my to cents and maybe some perspective to a confusing statement on a topic that does interest me quite a bit.

The 45 minutes would automatically make it more of an endurance deal.  The power moves zap your muscles storage in a matter of seconds due to the ATP-CP energy system which is replenished at a reasonable rate dependent on exercise intensity.  But even then its a stretch to say it comes from the liver.  Yes the lever holds around 1500kcal of glycogen, but it isn't necessarily responsible for replenishing the muscles on its own.  Plus with a 45 minute exercise bout, energy is coming from other systems too including non-working muscles releasing lactate for further breakdown. All in all, the faster twitch muscles are good for a few minutes before you get bogged down.  But, repetitive moves using the same muscle groups cause a movement to become more aerobic with repeated bouts. A really odd fact is that with training, your fast twitch muscles start to take on traits of slower twitch muscles.  It is fair to equate sprinters to climbers (more like milers for sport climbing).  But, the whole 45 minute deal with the liver is way off.  And at that point, you are relying a lot on "slow twitch" fibers.  You, Pat, of all people have seen me quaking up and down in the same 3 moves for a lot longer than 45 minutes.  That is some very aerobic trembling going on :-)
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lucky luke

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Somebody should tell all the marathon runners this, even bike racers that spend 5+ hours racing that they are feats that defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
My thoughts exactly.  Where does Champ get all these numbers from?
How about some references?

I think maybe he is talking about something like fast twitch vrs slow twitch muscle fibbers and powerful bursts of energy that require large amounts of strength vrs. longer more sustained efforts that burn fuel much more slow not requiring power lifter type strength but ultra runner endurance?

It is a reference to the krebs cycle and lactique/alactique chemical. 45 minutes, it is a mean. The muscle have a quantity of energy that we can use, like the tank of a car. You have to full it. One example is went your arm is pump because there is too much pyruvate in your muscle. You rest a little and can climb after. Red and white muscle (fast and slow twich) is more a relation between the blood irrigation of the muscle cell. As more blood you have, easier is it to make aerobic exercise.

The theory is very complex. For example, a complex molecule of glucose (don't remember the name) can be linear or non linear in the muscle due to the acidity of the muscle after a quantity of work. I can't explain every thing here.     
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