Author Topic: Efficient 3 person movement on White Horse Standard Route with 2 half ropes?  (Read 5289 times)

Offline strandman

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Fuckin' peanut /crystal climbing   :D

Offline xcrag_corex

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Very little pure friction in NE... Some harder stuff on Cannon, Future Shock (kinda)

Chris- you should check out Hugo's on Willard.. recently redone.. 6 ? pitches
+1 on Hugo's did its way fun!!!!
-Jeremy Ballou

"know how to rock, ain't afraid to roll"

DLottmann

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Just to beat this horse some more I climbed Standard yesterday with 2 clients who had 1 previous day experience, the day before, at Square Ledge with me. We started at 9am and climbed via the Arch and the 5.7 finish to the top. We climbed one at a time on single ropes (9.8's) and we topped out at 11:30am.

2.5 hours, and we were not rushing. Another local guide with 2 clients did Sliding Board at virtually the same pace, though I don't know the experience of his clients.

My point is the main thing that slows you down on moderate (read 5.7 and under) slab is;

1) Onsighting, mainly because of routefinding challenges
2) slow seconds... you can see good body position on the arch on the last picture:

http://davidlottmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/rock-climbing-fast-track-course/

A party ahead of us had started up Slabs Direct thinking it was Standard Route.  :o

They did have the nice watercolor P. Lewis topo map but were new to the area... I'm looking forward to seeing the detail in the new Handren guide.

Certainly a big speed increase was running out long sections of the arch that I would encourage new leaders to place more gear on. That and familiarity with the crux pitch.




Offline tradmanclimbz

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Placeing gear really should not slow you down much and sometimes makes you climb faster. that is of course provideing that you are good at placeing gear. I have had seconds tell me that I place gear the same speed that they clip bolts. that is obviously a skill to work on. I do find that in many situations placeing a bit more gear helps you climb faster and safer. YMMV   On super easy slab that may not be the case but I felt like rambeling..   A big part of keeping your slab head is to just keep moveing upward. tell yourself that I DON'T FALL ON THIS TYPE OF TERRAIN and just keep chugging up. Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......

DLottmann

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... Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......

Totally agree! Another side note regarding this route, you can actually link the bolted belay at the bottom of the arch with the pinch belay with a 60m rope (traditionally you stop and build a gear anchor at “the mailbox”).

Two ways to do this.

1) Space out your gear quite a bit and use shoulder length slings. I place 3 pieces on the pitch and traverse low at the end of the pitch, then climb straight up to the thread. Your 2nd could have a bit of a sliding swing after cleaning the last piece if they don’t also take the low road. It would be inconsequential as it is very low angle there.

2) Cut over to the Quartz Pocket route joining it above the Quartz pocket just in time for the 5.4 move at an old bolt stud (not clippable). There is gear in a flake before that move but it is a runout 5.4r pitch. Tricams help right after that one 5.4 move. At the end of the faint diagonal dike is a bomber #2 I place before stepping up to the pinch.

Both options really stretch a 60m rope, good idea to let your partner know what to do if you’re rope seems to have shrunk (i.e. unclip and start climbing).

Oh ya, anyone get a nut stuck just above Lunch Ledge or leave a nice shiny wire gate bail biner on the pin below the 5.7 crux?

Offline mechanicalchris

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Pinch belay is cool but I don't trust it alone, I put a cam in there as well. Def move slower because we auto block 100% of the time, with two half ropes it really takes a lot of energy out of the leader.

DLottmann

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we auto block 100% of the time

what do you mean by this?

Offline mechanicalchris

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DLottmann

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Ah, 100% of the time while belaying the second(s). Got it.

It's probably been mentioned already but that is really slow on the slabs... it's impossible to keep up with two fast moving seconds and it's hell on the elbows after a few years. It's why I love my Trango Cinch and a couple skinny single ropes, around 9.4mm. There is almost no effort required to pull 200 feet of rope through a Cinch and since it only takes a seconding climber 5-10 minutes to clean a pitch I find it so much easier to belay them one at a time this way. You also have the added abrasion resistance of having each climber on a single rope, as we should, even though sometimes we don't.

Offline old_school

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Ah, 100% of the time while belaying the second(s). Got it.

It's probably been mentioned already but that is really slow on the slabs... it's impossible to keep up with two fast moving seconds and it's hell on the elbows after a few years. It's why I love my Trango Cinch and a couple skinny single ropes, around 9.4mm. There is almost no effort required to pull 200 feet of rope through a Cinch and since it only takes a seconding climber 5-10 minutes to clean a pitch I find it so much easier to belay them one at a time this way. You also have the added abrasion resistance of having each climber on a single rope, as we should, even though sometimes we don't.

Very true! That is why I love my smart alpine...especially with thin ropes. There is next to no friction, pulls better than the ATC guide and Reverso 3 put together and I have the option to go with one or two climbers at a time. The cinch and new gri gri are great for single rope management and belaying though.

~g  ;)
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

Offline lucky luke

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Placeing gear really should not slow you down much and sometimes makes you climb faster. that is of course provideing that you are good at placeing gear. I have had seconds tell me that I place gear the same speed that they clip bolts. that is obviously a skill to work on. I do find that in many situations placeing a bit more gear helps you climb faster and safer. YMMV   On super easy slab that may not be the case but I felt like rambeling..   A big part of keeping your slab head is to just keep moveing upward. tell yourself that I DON'T FALL ON THIS TYPE OF TERRAIN and just keep chugging up. Stopping and micro managing moves never helps on slab......

I agree with training, but some wall are easier to protect than other and if you already did the climb few times, you don't have to choose distance, size and other factor.

My partner suggest me to take time at the begining to place good gear instead of just placing gear. They also told me to practice in top rope to place as many protection as I can in a pitch in many position. Thuis will help you to find resting place and also to know how energy you still have t make the next move.

Offline tradmanclimbz

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I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds. If it takes you more than 2 tries to get it right you need more work. One of my most frustrateing climbing days ever was being stuck behind a slow party on the Prow in december freezing my ever loveing ars off as this guy bounce tested every piece on the A1 finger crack. Yikes! if you can't pick the right stopper, place it and go on that sucker please just do us all a favor. Cut the rope and jump >:(

Offline lucky luke

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I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds.

In my rules, we must be able to size the next piece as we already clip the pro that we just place. I don`t climbb 5.11, but I agreee on 5.9 and 5.10.


DLottmann

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I can place gear in funky situations or easy ones. No matter. you should be able to look at a crack and pick the right piece in seconds.

In my rules, we must be able to size the next piece as we already clip the pro that we just place. I don`t climbb 5.11, but I agreee on 5.9 and 5.10.

Unless you are climbing in Indian Creek you usually have no idea what the next piece is. Seems pointless to me, though if I know what the crux piece is I may get it ready ahead of time (Intimidation)

Offline lucky luke

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Unless you are climbing in Indian Creek you usually have no idea what the next piece is. Seems pointless to me, though if I know what the crux piece is I may get it ready ahead of time (Intimidation)

Maybe the practice to be able to do it make an other distinction between trad and sport. and it is the cause of so many agressivity between us.

I am not good as before as I climb less. Hope to be back to the rock on a regular basis this week. Ordinarly, I train in aid climbing and do some exercise and climb multipitch route to be able to place my other protection before beeing in the next move. If you climb every day an place protection, you reach a moment when you have a feeling to where is going to be the next pro, without previous knowledge and without looking at it. That means that you don't just try to do harder move, like in sport, but that you are concentrate on the rock feature to anchor a nuts and how the cliff "move" to make crack, pocket and ledges (thing at many years for the rock to move or falling rock).

Saying that doing harder and harder move can also be very fun and valuable 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 05:08:54 PM by champoing »